has Rome EVER Changed Views On Council of Trent?

[Yeshua1]

If no, then they still view themselves as ONLY true church, and salvation impossible apart from the RCC!

 

[Herald]

Rome still espouses "extra ecclesium nulla sallus" (outside of the church there is no salvation). "Church" is defined as the Roman Catholic Church. The anathema of Trent against those who teach justification by faith alone still stands.

 

[Yeshua1]

Rome still espouses "extra ecclesium nulla sallus" (outside of the church there is no salvation). "Church" is defined as the Roman Catholic Church. The anathema of Trent against those who teach justification by faith alone still stands.

So when the RCC claims they hold to teaching saved by grace, its not faith as we define it, but by faith in coopearion with the sacraments of Grace themselves, and they still hold that one must get "pure enough" to actually merit the salvation of God, correct?

 

[Herald]

So when the RCC claims they hold to teaching saved by grace, its not faith as we define it, but by faith in coopearion with the sacraments of Grace themselves, and they still hold that one must get "pure enough" to actually merit the salvation of God, correct?

Very few Roman Catholics will ever be pure enough to go right to have after death. That is why there is purgatory according to the Roman system.

 

[Yeshua1]

Very few Roman Catholics will ever be pure enough to go right to have after death. That is why there is purgatory according to the Roman system.

For to the Church of Rome, one must attain a saint level in this life by co operating with god thru Sacraments, for God cannot ever declare an unjust just, as Calvin/Luther et all claimed?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

If no, then they still view themselves as ONLY true church, and salvation impossible apart from the RCC!

Wow! Big topic. A lot of misinformation but lets see if I can clear it up a bit so at least people actually know what is going on.

As far as I know the Catholic Church never recinded Trent. However, point of note often I see Trent referred to and it often is incorrectly represented. As is currently the Catholic view of extra Ecclesiam nulla salus or Outside the Church there is no salvation. There are often two incorrect perceptions of this teaching one that is indifferent ie "it makes no difference what church one adheres to" and the other is "that unless you are a full baptized member of the local Catholic Church you will be damned". The actual teaching is that while it is the common mode for salvation there are exceptions to the norm. For instance Pope Pius IX said at Vatican I

We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge; we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord. And who would presume to mark out the limits of this ignorance according to the character and diversity of peoples, countries, minds and the rest?

It is an accepted Catholic view that this phrase which referrencing St. Augustine (Sermon 96, 7, 9) and later emphasised at Trent should be understood positively or with this understanding "that all salvation comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church, which is His Body." But basically that is how that doctine is to be understood. From here we can get into the more complicated issues regarding this teaching such as invincible ignorance.

 

[Yeshua1]

Wow! Big topic. A lot of misinformation but lets see if I can clear it up a bit so at least people actually know what is going on.

As far as I know the Catholic Church never recinded Trent. However, point of note often I see Trent referred to and it often is incorrectly represented. As is currently the Catholic view of extra Ecclesiam nulla salus or Outside the Church there is no salvation. There are often two incorrect perceptions of this teaching one that is indifferent ie "it makes no difference what church one adheres to" and the other is "that unless you are a full baptized member of the local Catholic Church you will be damned". The actual teaching is that while it is the common mode for salvation there are exceptions to the norm. For instance Pope Pius IX said at Vatican I It is an accepted Catholic view that this phrase which referrencing St. Augustine (Sermon 96, 7, 9) and later emphasised at Trent should be understood positively or with this understanding "that all salvation comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church, which is His Body." But basically that is how that doctine is to be understood. From here we can get into the more complicated issues regarding this teaching such as invincible ignorance.

So you would agree with rome that persons sincere in other faiths/religions can be saved, if ignorant of catholic teachings, as God applies the Church over them, same fashion can save ignorant protestants, but those who know and still repudiate official cathoic doctrines are lost?

 

[Matt Black]

It has refined its views on justification - see the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification. This doesn't rescind the Tridentine anathema on the subject but rather explains it more fulsomely.

 

[Herald]

Canon Law will always trump periodic decrees and opinions. The official doctrine of Rome is that those who teach justification by faith ALONE are considered to be anathema. In this pluralistic age it is not a popular thing to say, but it is still official Roman law.

 

[Matt Black]

One has to define what one means by 'faith alone' though. It is that definition which has been expanded by the Joint Declaration; it is clear here that the Lutheran definition of 'faith alone' does not fall under that Tridentine anathema - does yours?

 

[Herald]

One has to define what one means by 'faith alone' though. It is that definition which has been expanded by the Joint Declaration; it is clear here that the Lutheran definition of 'faith alone' does not fall under that Tridentine anathema - does yours?

Matt, the Reformed view of Sola Fide rejects paradosis (tradition), sacramentalism (ex opere operato), and acts of contrition (pennance). Faith stands alone.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Canon Law will always trump periodic decrees and opinions. The official doctrine of Rome is that those who teach justification by faith ALONE are considered to be anathema. In this pluralistic age it is not a popular thing to say, but it is still official Roman law.

You don't understand what canon law actually is. Its not a doctrinal document of faith declaration rather it is document that looks on the application of the administration of the faith. And therefore Canon Law can change. It is not a guide to teaching of faith and morals but rather how things are administratively applied much like a baptist manual for policy and practice on church administration. Doctrine may effect how some things are done administratively but administration doesn't define doctrine.

 

[Matt Black]

Matt, the Reformed view of Sola Fide rejects paradosis (tradition), sacramentalism (ex opere operato), and acts of contrition (pennance). Faith stands alone.

Yes, I know (and I think they're wrong to do that). But what do you mean by 'faith'?

 

[Herald]

Yes, I know (and I think they're wrong to do that). But what do you mean by 'faith'?

Salvation is by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8,9). Faith (Greek "pistis") is a deep seeded belief. But faith in whom or what? In respect of salvation it is in Jesus Christ (who He is) and what He did, both in His perfect obedience to the Father, His sacrificial death, and His resurrection.

 

[Matt Black]

Does 'faith' mean, for example, just saying 'The Sinner's Prayer', believing in Jesus and His atoning sacrifice, 'asking Jesus into your life', or any of the other 'buzz phrases' I've heard in my 25+ years within evangelicalism? Because if that's all it is, I've done all of the above at some point in my life, and I'm off to dial-a-hooker and shoot up some smack, because that doesn't matter, does it? Or does 'faith' mean something more?

 

[Herald]

Does 'faith' mean, for example, just saying 'The Sinner's Prayer', believing in Jesus and His atoning sacrifice, 'asking Jesus into your life', or any of the other 'buzz phrases' I've heard in my 25+ years within evangelicalism? Because if that's all it is, I've done all of the above at some point in my life, and I'm off to dial-a-hooker and shoot up some smack, because that doesn't matter, does it? Or does 'faith' mean something more?

Hebrews says "faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the convictions of things not seen." Faith is a deep-seeded beflief. Faith is absolute and irrevocable trust. In regards to salvation it is that irrevocable trust in Christ. It is not a temporal trust, as we would trust that a chair can hold our weight. Instead it is a trust that Paul articulated this way, "For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day" (2 Timothy 1:12). It is a trust that may be shaken on occasion, but it will never fail because of the object of that trust.

 

[Yeshua1]

You don't understand what canon law actually is. Its not a doctrinal document of faith declaration rather it is document that looks on the application of the administration of the faith. And therefore Canon Law can change. It is not a guide to teaching of faith and morals but rather how things are administratively applied much like a baptist manual for policy and practice on church administration. Doctrine may effect how some things are done administratively but administration doesn't define doctrine.

back to the OP...

Has ANYTHING said by the Church changed ANY ways theviews expressed by the Church in the Council of Trent?

 

[Yeshua1]

Salvation is by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8,9). Faith (Greek "pistis") is a deep seeded belief. But faith in whom or what? In respect of salvation it is in Jesus Christ (who He is) and what He did, both in His perfect obedience to the Father, His sacrificial death, and His resurrection.

That is why rome can come back together with groups such as Lutheryn or Anlicans, for both of them also teach in some regards to having salvation by faith AND thru the sacraments of grace!

 

[Herald]

That is why rome can come back together with groups such as Lutheryn or Anlicans, for both of them also teach in some regards to having salvation by faith AND thru the sacraments of grace!

But Rome does not believe in Sola Fide. It is always plus...

 

[Matt Black]

Hebrews says "faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the convictions of things not seen." Faith is a deep-seeded beflief. Faith is absolute and irrevocable trust. In regards to salvation it is that irrevocable trust in Christ. It is not a temporal trust, as we would trust that a chair can hold our weight. Instead it is a trust that Paul articulated this way, "For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day" (2 Timothy 1:12). It is a trust that may be shaken on occasion, but it will never fail because of the object of that trust.

Getting close I think....what consequences does that trust have in this life for the holder of that trust?