has Rome EVER Changed Views On Council of Trent?

[Thinkingstuff]

Justification is a one time permanent event , it happens at the moment the sinner receives Christ by faith!

Your problem when it comes to Justification is that you have introduced a false dichotomy. You have absolutized the forensic nature of Justification and insist that God's declaration doesn't effect change (an ontological change) in the one justified. Where as in the Catholic view one could say:

"God's justifying sentence is regarded as effective and thus as producing what it declares" - A. Dulles, "Justification in Contemporary Catholic Theology"

In the end your view of Justifaction falls short because its only a declaritive statement or a legal fiction but Catholics know what God said in Exodus 23:7

Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked."

Thus God doesn't want to just make a declaration ie forensic justification view (ie a legal fiction) but to cause an ontological change in the one justified.
Thus scriptures and Paul would disagree with you. What does Paul say?

For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous

Thus we are not only given a experiential change in relationship but given an actual righteous nature. We are made righteous. We see this false dichotomy which disengages the declaration and the actuality of ontological change challenged by Paul when he says

this is the mercifuljustice God, who gives life to the dead and calls the nonexistent into existence

So Justification cannot be simply just forenesic.

 

[Matt Black]

Exactly. In one sense only can justification be said to be a 'one-off' event - the Crucifixion.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I'm not RC, but one doesn't have to be to disbelieve forensic justification.

 

[Yeshua1]

Your problem when it comes to Justification is that you have introduced a false dichotomy. You have absolutized the forensic nature of Justification and insist that God's declaration doesn't effect change (an ontological change) in the one justified. Where as in the Catholic view one could say: In the end your view of Justifaction falls short because its only a declaritive statement or a legal fiction but Catholics know what God said in Exodus 23:7 Thus God doesn't want to just make a declaration ie forensic justification view (ie a legal fiction) but to cause an ontological change in the one justified.
Thus scriptures and Paul would disagree with you. What does Paul say? Thus we are not only given a experiential change in relationship but given an actual righteous nature. We are made righteous. We see this false dichotomy which disengages the declaration and the actuality of ontological change challenged by Paul when he says So Justification cannot be simply just forenesic.

God put upon jesus at the Cross ALL of my sins, Christ died in MY PLACE, as a penal Substitute to the father for me!

When the Lord saved me, placing me in Him at moment reeceived jesus by faith, the Father saw me in Him, forever perfect in regards to be hld guilty for sins commited past/present/future!

there is no 'legal fiction", involved, as Jesus death paid to the father for ALL my sins, and when saw in jesus, I am complete and fully justified to God!

Do you hold to jesus death being a penal substitution to the Father on our behalf or not?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

God put upon jesus at the Cross ALL of my sins, Christ died in MY PLACE, as a penal Substitute to the father for me!

In some sense there is an aspect of "penal substitution" in the atonement however that is not the entirety of the atonement else you damage the character of God. Certainly, Jesus Christ died for "all your sins" however, you must then not only accept the grace by confessing those sins (in repentance) of that atonement but also use it to transform your life.

When the Lord saved me, placing me in Him at moment reeceived jesus by faith, the Father saw me in Him, forever perfect in regards to be hld guilty for sins commited past/present/future!

Look at this statement of yours. It proves you hold a legal fiction view of salvation. Look at your own words!

the Father saw me in Him, forever perfect

Not that God sees you as you are but by a trick of a shell game you are saying God doesn't see you but his son. You are in actuality hidden behind the son. Which makes your righteousness not a real righteousness but a fiction as God's eyes are now blinded to you in actuality as Jesus stands in front of you. Thus there is no actual transformation of your life.

there is no 'legal fiction", involved, as Jesus death paid to the father for ALL my sins, and when saw in jesus, I am complete and fully justified to God!

as I've just shown it is a legal fiction, a declaration, but not an infact statement regarding who you are. And again you refer to the father being blinded to who you actually are by Jesus standing in front so the Father cannot see you. You are not complete nor fully justified unless you are "made righteous" as Paul says. You must move on to perfection by the renewing of your mind again as Paul says. Justification is a process and completed when we are in heaven which nothing imperfect enters is.

Do you hold to jesus death being a penal substitution to the Father on our behalf or not?

Do not hold that Penal Substitution is the whole of atonement because it makes of God unjust as then God would punish the innocent to let the guilty go free also it is unjust because temporary suffering and temporary death is a disproportionate payment to infinate death and suffering. And in the end and the greatest flaw with penal substitution is that it confers on its beneficaries freedom to sin without consequences. I do not believe this is scriptural. Rather I hold that Jesus Satisfies the Justice of God by his infinate merits.

 

[Matt Black]

Yes, PSA is but one model and one part of what the Crucifixion (and Resurrection - don't forget that!) achieved. There are other components: substitutionary atonement (ie: without the penal part), Christus Victor and the ransom theory.

 

[Yeshua1]

In some sense there is an aspect of "penal substitution" in the atonement however that is not the entirety of the atonement else you damage the character of God. Certainly, Jesus Christ died for "all your sins" however, you must then not only accept the grace by confessing those sins (in repentance) of that atonement but also use it to transform your life.


Look at this statement of yours. It proves you hold a legal fiction view of salvation. Look at your own words! Not that God sees you as you are but by a trick of a shell game you are saying God doesn't see you but his son. You are in actuality hidden behind the son. Which makes your righteousness not a real righteousness but a fiction as God's eyes are now blinded to you in actuality as Jesus stands in front of you. Thus there is no actual transformation of your life.

as I've just shown it is a legal fiction, a declaration, but not an infact statement regarding who you are. And again you refer to the father being blinded to who you actually are by Jesus standing in front so the Father cannot see you. You are not complete nor fully justified unless you are "made righteous" as Paul says. You must move on to perfection by the renewing of your mind again as Paul says. Justification is a process and completed when we are in heaven which nothing imperfect enters is.


Do not hold that Penal Substitution is the whole of atonement because it makes of God unjust as then God would punish the innocent to let the guilty go free also it is unjust because temporary suffering and temporary death is a disproportionate payment to infinate death and suffering. And in the end and the greatest flaw with penal substitution is that it confers on its beneficaries freedom to sin without consequences. I do not believe this is scriptural. Rather I hold that Jesus Satisfies the Justice of God by his infinate merits.

We NEVER become ANY more saved than when God the father freely justifies us at moment of receiving jesus by faith alone, for we will always been see as in Jesus, clothed in his rightousness !

Now, we will be conforming more and more into that Image of Christ, but that does NOT make make any more saved, just being acting moree like Christ, exhibiting him unto others in my conduct/words/deeds!

Again, you confuse justifed before God by grace/faith alone, with walkin in the saunctifing process afterwards!

wsa the thief on the cross saved or not, and how was he?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

We NEVER become ANY more saved than when God the father freely justifies us at moment of receiving jesus by faith alone, for we will always been see as in Jesus, clothed in his rightousness !

If what you say were true; then Paul wasted his breath when he said.

I appeal to you therefore, brothers,[a] by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world,[c] but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

or when he said

that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

But I believe Paul didn't waste his breath and your view is therefore wrong.

Now, we will be conforming more and more into that Image of Christ, but that does NOT make make any more saved

We can't enter heaven unless we are perfect. Our Justification isn't complete unless we are perfect. Jesus is not playing a shell game with us. He's making us righteous and the first step is to wash away our sins. Now the next step is sanctification. Sanctification is important aspect of our faith one not to be disregarded.

Again, you confuse justifed before God by grace/faith alone

Nope because scriptures doesn't see faith without the works it produces. Therefore I'm not confused. You are confused because you read James which says

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

, you then say to yourself "oh we must be justified by faith alone because the bible says "that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." It seems self evident that you are confusd.

 

[Yeshua1]

If what you say were true; then Paul wasted his breath when he said. or when he said But I believe Paul didn't waste his breath and your view is therefore wrong.

We can't enter heaven unless we are perfect. Our Justification isn't complete unless we are perfect. Jesus is not playing a shell game with us. He's making us righteous and the first step is to wash away our sins. Now the next step is sanctification. Sanctification is important aspect of our faith one not to be disregarded.

Nope because scriptures doesn't see faith without the works it produces. Therefore I'm not confused. You are confused because you read James which says , you then say to yourself "oh we must be justified by faith alone because the bible says "that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." It seems self evident that you are confusd.

paul is rtalking about progressive santification, NOT salvation in allthose passages!

God will is for all to become into the image of christ, that thoughts/actions/deeds reflect the Son of God living in and thru us more clearly, BUT nothing to do with salvation in the sense of being saved going to heaven etc...

ALl to do with ability to be used for/by God here, and to earn eternal rewards for services unto him, NOT salvation per say!