Has the US ever been a Christian nation.

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

When I sin I ma not Christ-like. I am still a Christian.

When a nation bears a national sin (slavery, infanticide) it is not being Christ like and never was Christian.

 

[LadyEagle]

Okay, but that doesn't take away from the point that the many, if not most, of the Europeans who first settled here were Christians. Let's go back further than the US Constitution. For what purpose were the 13 original colonies settled and what did their charters say? I brought up the Mayflower Compact which seems to be pooh-poohed.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
Okay, but that doesn't take away from the point that the many, if not most, of the Europeans who first settled here were Christians.

They considered themselves Christians, but didn't necessarily think that their neighbors were Christians. In fact, the Puritans did not think highly of their Dutch Reformed or Anglican neighbors. The Puritans came for their own religious freedom, but not for anyone else's.

Let's go back further than the US Constitution.

Our nation wasn't a nation until 1776, and we as a country had no effective form of governance until the Constitution (ratified 1791). There is no law aside from that in the Constitution.

This nation was founded under the concept of no taxation without representation. As far as religion, its government was founded as a secular government protecting the religious freedoms of all, while respecting the religion of none.

 

[Bunyon]

"it is not being Christ like and never was Christian. "--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you insist that a nation can't have a personal relationship with Chrsit like a person can. But I don't know why you must. No one is arguing it with you. We aren't defining the term that way and if we were we would be saying the same thing you are.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Our Christian forefathers were the epitome of the same kind fo religious intolerance from which they fled.

As the Baptists in the Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1690.

No Bunyon, "we" are defining Christian the same way. You are the one who continues to use my relationship with Christ as an analogy to our nation.

Our nation never was either born again or Christian, IMHO. It was, is, and always will be secular. The drafters of the above mentioned Mayflower Compact may have been Christians, that does not make the country that was formed 175 years later Christian in any sense of the word.

 

[Bunyon]

Well I keep trying to share with you that I am using the term differently than you are, and that I think the common usage is different than the way you are using it. I can't debate with you on your terms because there is no debate there. So I'll just walk away.

Are you still in Germany, what is the weather like? Are you going to see any thing exciting while you are there?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I think we miscommunicating here. We are using the same terms. I am not using "Christian" to mean "born again." I don't think our nation has ever been Christian in any sense of the word, not "born again," not in a generic sense in regard to her laws and ethics. We are a secular nation by design and in practice.

Praise God for the freedom that true Christians have had to impact their society because of the secular state that acknowledged the importance of religion as a vital aspect of that society.

Going home tomorrow. Really enjoying the visit. Have been able to see quite a bit. Thanks for asking. I have a photoblog up of what we are seeing. PM me if you'd like the address .

Nothing like electronic version of showing holiday pictures .

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

I believe the term Christian denotes those who are followers of Christ, Saved by Grace, and who follow the teachings of the Bible, the Word of God. I still am not sure what definition of Christian you are using.

I think you probably wish this nation was at one time a "Christian Nation" so that you could have a stronger argument for why we should go back to the good old days and become what you think we were meant to be...but it simply isn't so.

BTW, a secular democracy is certainly not the worst form of government in the world. As a matter of fact, I would say it is probably the very best this world has to offer. But, there is certainly much better (indeed the best) waiting for us in the Kingdom of God, the only true Christian Nation anywhere.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Bunyon]

Just the same, I am all talked out

Joseph, I would say a secular democracy that recognizes just who and where its blessing's come from is the best form. Our democracy used to recognize the Christian God as its source of blessing and moral direction. This is what I mean by a Christian nation. And I could go on, but I got to quit talking sometime. But I'll see you both on another thread, same place -different time.

C4K, I would like to see the pics, I'll pm soon.

 

[NiteShift]

Originally posted by C4K:

Our nation never was either born again or Christian, IMHO. It was, is, and always will be secular. The drafters of the above mentioned Mayflower Compact may have been Christians, that does not make the country that was formed 175 years later Christian in any sense of the word.

C4K, at least one Supreme Court justice saw it otherwise. Supreme Court Justice David J. Brewer (serving 1890-1910) spoke of the United States as a Christian nation:

"This Republic is classified among the Christian nations of the world. It was so formally declared by the Supreme Court of the United States. In the case of Holy Trinity Church vs. United Sates, 143, U.S. 471, that Court, after mentioning various circumstances, added, "these and many other matters which might be noted, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation." (Unanimous opinion, Feburary 29, 1892).

"It is not an exaggeration to say that Christianity in some of its creeds was the principal cause of the settlement of many of the colonies, and co-operated with business hopes and purposes in the settlement of others. Beginning in this way and under these influences it is not strange that colonial life had an emphatic Christian tone."

Now, that may not be the last word on the subject. But it does show that our justices in the past saw the subject very differently from what you are insisting on. At least some of them acknowledged the plain obvious facts.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

The Supreme Court has also ruled that infanticide is legal and that ownership of another man is legal. Does that make them correct?

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Bunyon:
"Somehow, uniting with the African American Slaves didn't seem to be that important to them."

Well, Joseph I guess the efforts of no Nation on Earth prior to the 1800 can earn your respect then Joseph. It is a fine thing to sit and judge a group of people trying to make a Nation in the 16 and 17 hundreds while sitting here in a Nation that was achieved and bulit upon their efforts. How would you feel if someone picked out all of your faults and said you were a hypocrite and refused to recognize the good efforts you make toward living your faith?

1. You take my commments way too personally. My nation certainly has my respect as being the best form of government this world has to offer. It isn't a Christian Nation, however.

2. Let me see if I got this right: Because these so called Christian founders lived in the 16 and 17 hundreds, that excuses their decision to allow the buying and selling of humans like cattle? Interesting. I disagree with that.

3. Allow me to judge our own time myself. We are not much better than the founders in that we refuse to protect the innocent lives of the unborn. Of course, the point is not about throwing stones, but acknowledging that we are a secular democracy, not a Christian Nation. If we were and ever had been, we would have followed the teachings of the Bible without compromise and wouldn't even have / had to debate slavery back then and abortion now.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by C4K:
The Supreme Court has also ruled that infanticide is legal and that ownership of another man is legal. Does that make them correct?

Speaking of which, where were they in the 1700's when America endorsed the buying and selling of humans like cattle?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[NiteShift]

Originally posted by C4K:
The Supreme Court has also ruled that infanticide is legal and that ownership of another man is legal. Does that make them correct?

Not necessarily. But it does mean that the subject is not a slam dunk, as you are insisting.

 

[Bunyon]

Joseph, I agree we are not and have never been the IDEAL christian nation, but we are or have been the closest thing the world has ever seen.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Sorry if you got that impression. I am simply stating my opinion - other's views differ. There is no problem with that, is there?

My view is not a popular one in our circles, but that does not necessarily mean that I am 100% wrong.

Your one quote by one justice also does not constitute a "slam dunk." His view is just that, his view.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

As somebody used to say when I was a kid: "Close, but no cigar". We are, and always have been a secular democracy, which I believe is the best this world has to offer. There is no Christian Nation on this earth.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Well,

It has once again, been fun. I am going to bed and probably won't be able to respond to anything again until late tomorrow night as I will be out of town with the band and won't get home till probably 1:00 am tomorrow evening.

Till then,

Joseph Botwinick

 

[NiteShift]

Originally posted by C4K:
Sorry if you got that impression. I am simply stating my opinion - other's views differ. There is no problem with that, is there?

My view is not a popular one in our circles, but that does not necessarily mean that I am 100% wrong.

Your one quote by one justice also does not constitute a "slam dunk." His view is just that, his view.

Well, I think that your view is a legalistic approach that looks at only one document: the Constitution. There were many other founding documents that did in fact acknowledge the hand of God in the founding of our nation, plus the weight of 'the facts on the ground': the beliefs, behavior, and institutions of our country, which were all strongly Christian. But my guess is that the majority of US citizens today would see things your way, and not mine.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Going over the whole thread once again the only conclusion I can come to is when you talk about a Christian nation you are referring to a theocracy.