Hate?

uh...yeah!! Freewill, right?

 

What , specifically ,is strawmanish about any of my queries ? Are the questions too hard ?

 

It depends on what kind of faith you are talking about.

Please allow me to generalize a little for the answer.

The sacrifice of Christ was to satisfy the sin debt owed by every person due to our fallen nature, but that payment (and the forgiveness of sin) is only available for those who accept, through faith, the Gospel of Jesus Christ and are born again by the grace of God.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

If you are Calvinist, then He only died for the Elect, and being in the lake of fire would surely rule one out as being one of the elect.

Logic (derived from a scriptural basis) tells us that if someone has the benefit of atonement then there would be no cause or reason for them to suffer condemnation and damnation. Therefore, anyone in the lake of fire is there because they died without the forgiveness of sin. I don't think, from what I've seen, anyone is saying what you're asking.

No.

No, since salvation is wholly from God. If you believe man has free will to make that choice, scripture shows he would never be able to make it were it not for the Lord reaching out to them fisrt, stirring their spirit, and sending His word for them to hear. Even with free will man does not seek God out on his own, God moves first and provides the means and the way. The decision could not be made if it were not for God moving first from all directions.

If you do not believe in free will, the question is moot.

See above.

Forgive me for not going into detail here. I am new here and I hope you will forgive a presumtion on my part. It seems to me that you are asking these questions more to make a point than to gather information. If I am wrong, please forgive me. If I am not, why don't you just come out and say what you want to say without all the leading questions? It would make things much easier and they would go more quickly.

 

If God is tormenting you with his Holy Angels, before he's throwing you into the lake of fire . If he never Knew you and he did everything to try toget you saved but you never did can you actually say in your heart of hearts tha Christ died for your sins. </font>[/QUOTE]If we were sitting at breakfast togethr and I notice you have no salt and I put it in my hand and stretched it out to you; then, when you did not get it, I got up and walked over to you and placed it in front of you and said, "Here's the salt," and you still didn't take it; can you say, in your heart of hearts, that I didn't try to give you the salt?

 

For all men have not faith is biblical Helen .

You truncate what I say just like you do what the Bible says! This is a habit with you? I said all men have faith in something or someone. When you are driving, you are having faith in other drivers, that they will obey the laws and not run a red light an hit you, not speed up and hit your bumper, etc. Everything we do in life takes some amount of faith. Faith is not a foreign thing to the human race. The key thing is what or who one has faith IN. Faith requires an object. Faith in yourself? Faith in your parents? Faith in God? Faith that the chair you are sitting in won't collapse under you?

You still haven't answered my questions .

Yes, I have, multiple times.

One in particular : Did Jesus die for anyone who ends up in the Lake of Fire ? Did He atone for someone's sins who will , nevertheless , spend eternity suffering for his sins that Jesus supposedly took away ?

I quoted the Bible's answers to that. Jesus tasted death for EVERY man. He died once for all. Sin is an affront, an insult, to God. NONE are left unatoned for. Jesus BECAME sin for us, remember? He paid the price for all of mankind. That is why no one goes into eternal punishment because of sin. They are condemned for lack of belief in Jesus Christ. Read John 3:16-18 and many other similar verses.

Some more for you . Are saved people the author of their own salvation ?

Our Lord Jesus Christ is the source and completion of salvation.

Should they get the credit for " deciding for Christ " ?

If Christ chooses to give them credit for choosing Him, what is that to you?

Does salvation hinge on their choice , under their bare naked power ?

Since when does making a choice take power -- let alone the bare naked kind?

In essence does the independent God depend on His own dependent creatures ?

No. But in His independence, He has chosen to allow us to choose our own destinies. He provided the way so that it would be possible to choose Him.

Did Jesus die for all without exception or all without distinction ?

Yes, every one.

Does God desire the salvation of those for who He made no provision ?

There is no such thing. He provided for everyone. And then gave each the choice as to whether to accept that provision or not.

 

It depends on what kind of faith we are talking about. I am talking about saving faith, that faith that leads to the accepting of Christ and repentance. I don't see faith so much as a possession in this context but, rather, as a state of being or, better said, believing.

Having said that, the reason all men do not have saving faith is that they either have never followed the guidance of the Spirit when He moves in their heart, or they come to the point when they know (through the Word) that they are lost and rebel, stopping short of acceptance of the Gospel.

P.S. I went back and read my post where I asked you to ask your question or to make your point and it did not come across as I intended it to. It sounded snippy and I did not intend it that way. </font>[/QUOTE]So to briefly get back to our conversation, BroShane, do you stand by or abandon your earlier response in which you said:

"those that are not saved are those who have not had faith (or rejected it) "

??

If you stand by it, let me ask you - if they don't have faith, WHY don't they have it? And if they rejected it, then they must not have it to begin with, correct?

(NKJV) 2 Thessalonians 3:2 and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men; for not all have faith .

If you do not stand by your previous post, then do you stand by this post:

"they either have never followed...or they come to the point when they ... rebel"
??

If this post, then let me ask you - WHY did they not follow, and WHY did they rebel?

The bible answers these questions in very plain language that can't be misunderstood.

 

I stand by it.

The faith can not be saving faith since it didn't produce the relsult of salvation. If they rejected it then it's only logical that they never had it.

This is true, all men do not have saving faith (or doctrinal faith), which is proven by the fact that scripture says that not everyone will be saved.

There is no inconsistancy in my previous reply, so there's no need in diving the post as if there is one. I'll answer both.

II Timothy 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world , and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia. - emphasis mine

They reject it because they "love the present world" and do not wish to be in submission to anyone or anything higher than themselves. In short, they are doing what lost people do, being selfish.

I believe you are trying to lead me into saying, "Because they chose to do so." If so, then the lost choose to remain lost by not heeding the word as well as not submitting to it when they are convicted to do so.

I agree, it does.

 

raying:

Even though william walks through the valley of the shadow of death, he will fear no evil, for God is with him.

 

I stand by it.

The faith can not be saving faith since it didn't produce the relsult of salvation. If they rejected it then it's only logical that they never had it.

This is true, all men do not have saving faith (or doctrinal faith), which is proven by the fact that scripture says that not everyone will be saved.

There is no inconsistancy in my previous reply, so there's no need in diving the post as if there is one. I'll answer both.

II Timothy 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world , and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia. - emphasis mine

They reject it because they "love the present world" and do not wish to be in submission to anyone or anything higher than themselves. In short, they are doing what lost people do, being selfish.

I believe you are trying to lead me into saying, "Because they chose to do so." If so, then the lost choose to remain lost by not heeding the word as well as not submitting to it when they are convicted to do so.

I agree, it does. </font>[/QUOTE]BroShane, hope you're still there, I haven't been able to blog for a couple of days. I'll not drag this out any further.

No, I'm not trying to get you to say "because they chose to do so". Because if you said that, I would again ask you "WHY did they choose to do so?"

When I said the bible plainly answers those questions, here are the verses that answer them:

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Did you notice that word "because"? Some would say that people are not His sheep because they do not believe. But that is not what the bible says. Look at the order. He said that they do not believe BECAUSE they are not His sheep. The bible plainly tells us WHY some people do not believe. THEY ARE NOT HIS SHEEP.

It doesn't work both ways. There is a definite order. Now read the whole passage with that understanding, this passage which over the last 30 years I've quoted word for word at least a thousand times beginning in verse 27 but never including verse 26:

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand. 30 I and [my] Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

We use portions of this passage to give people assurance of their salvation, and if they're truly saved, that's alright. But the passage was used by Jesus to show the Pharisees why they could be sure that they were NOT SAVED!

So if someone say, "Why do some believe and some don't?", here's the answer.

Furtermore, some people CAN NOT believe. Jesus said so.

37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Did you see that right there in verse 39? THEY COULD NOT BELIEVE.

Only those that He has chosen will believe, and those he has left to themselves will go into perdition.

If a man does not have (saving) faith, it is because God has not granted it to him.

If a man refuses to follow the saviour, it is because he has not heard His voice.

And so on.

Now those he has chosen WILL come to Him, and WILL follow Him, and WILL enter into the glory of the Lord.

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.

Do you see that?

 

These are those who the Scripture is talking about who have not faith.

1 Timothy, chapter 4

1": Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
"2": Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

This world is full of them now. They would take your life for no reason at all and think nothing of it. Some men will kill you and say they do God a service, you think they have the faith, not any more for they are as the above with no conscience? Too much hate and jealousy in this world.


Good answers Helen .

[ March 26, 2006, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: Brother Bob ]

 

Uhhh????

 

Still here. I understand, things are still busy here.

Agreed.

That is akin to saying that a liberal does not believe in conservative ideas because they are liberal. This is a logical conclsion, but it does not negate the idea that they may change their mind.

The order is implied by your premise, not necessarily the text.

It tells them why they are not saved, because they didn't believe, not that they couldn't.

In verse 38 Jesus says two things. The first is "But if I do, though ye believe not me" which is in the active voice, but the subjucntive mood. The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility, which means although they didn't currently believe the action (believeing) may or may not still occur inthe future.

The second thing said in verse 38 by Christ is, "believe the works: that ye may know, and believe." The first "believe" is in the imperative mood, which is a command. The "that ye may know" returns to the subjunctive mood, as does the second "believe" in the verse. The only command here is to believe the works, with all other things being subjucntive, meaning that the commanded action may or may not happen in the future. Nothing here says they had no choice, and is they had no choice these would have been better rendered in the indicative mood.

That may be true, but you have not proved that with these verses.

Again, you have not proved that.

By the vesres you have used, this is not shown. They did not become His sheep because they did not heed His command to believe, and the subjunctive mood shows they had a choice. If they had no choice and it was a simple matter of fact they had no choice, it would have been rendered in the indicative mood.

Then this leads to the questions of why and how they were chosen.

Yes, I know it is God that justifies, but not according to what you have asserted. God does justify, but that only comes through saving faith which is either accepted or rejected by man.

Also, the verses you quote from John chapter 12, do not tie into these above verses you quote as they are two sperarate passages and are dealing with related, yet different, things. They could not see in much the way Pharoh could not see, yet we are told that God did harden Pharoh's heart - but we are also told Pharoh hardened his own heart as well.

 

"It tells them why they are not saved, because they didn't believe, not that they couldn't."

You reversed the order.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep,

Why did you reverse the order? How is it that my premise implies the order and not the text? Please answer in plain English.

 

I did not reverse the order at all. I agree that Jesus said they did not believe because they were not His sheep. Your premise implies the order that: "A" is not "B" because it is impossible for "A" to change or for "B" to change. The text does, however, support the premise that "A" is not "B" but at any time "A" or "B" could change.

Christ said they didn't believe because they weren't His sheep. This is a simple statement of fact. What is not born out by the text is that they had no chioce in the matter, or that they could not ever become sheep, hense the subjunctive mood.

 

I don't know about your A's and B's but I do know that there is a logical order called cause and effect. Cause precedes effect.

"But ye believe not" is the effect.

"ye are not my sheep" is the cause.

"But ye believe not, BECAUSE ye are not of my sheep".

"What is not born out by the text is that they had no chioce in the matter, or that they could not ever become sheep, hense the subjunctive mood."

1. I don't remember what subjunctive means and I don't think it's meaningful.

2. I didn't say that they had no choice in the matter. My question was "why did they CHOOSE to not believe?" So I recognize that they made a choice.

3. I suppose it could be that there were yet-converted elect standing among those whom the Lord was addressing, but if that was the case, the Lord's words had to be specifically targeted for the non-elect, for he expresses such a tone of finallity.

 

Your assertion is that they could not believe, ever, because they were not His sheep, and never were intended/elected/predestined to be. Again, the text does not bear it out when we read the entire passage. For your assertion to be true the mood, in the Greek, would have to have been the indicative mood (which is s imple statement of fact) through the whole passage dealing with this. It is not.

It's quite meaningful. The subjuctive mood is the mood of possibility, meaning the action or command may or may not happen in the future. If Christ were stating what you say He is stating then all the passages dealing with belief would be rendered, in the Greek, in the indicative mood, which is a statement of fact. They are not.

No, according to your reasoning they could not make a choice because they were doing only what was in their nature to do, namely, deny God because they were not of the elect. Regardless of the outward appearance, a choice is only available if there is more than one option to take.

Sure, others could have been listening, but Christ was not speaking directly to them. He was speaking directly to those in the passage you quoted.