have I been mistaught?

[Marcia]

I think your use of "whole" is a bit misguided, Marcia.

Well, I admit I'm no expert on this but am speaking from SS churches I know of. One has about 8,000 people attending and it does orient itself to seekers.

Maybe Seeker Sensitive should be defined. After all, if it means anything anyone wants it to mean, or thinks it should mean, it means nothing and the discussion is useless.

 

[righteousdude2]

It Sounds Like the SSS Church is Like Today's....

Well, I admit I'm no expert on this but am speaking from SS churches I know of. One has about 8,000 people attending and it does orient itself to seekers.

Maybe Seeker Sensitive should be defined. After all, if it means anything anyone wants it to mean, or thinks it should mean, it means nothing and the discussion is useless.

It really sounds like the speaker sensitive movement is similar to the "Diversity Training" discipline being used in the workplaces throughout this country.

I can rest, assured that I never compromised the truth of the message, if the heavy weight of God's foot fell hard on the foot or head of the congregant, than "so be it!":tonofbricks:

Great article and topic.

Shalom,

Pastor Paul:type:

 

[righteousdude2]

Redo on Earlier Post

Have I been mistaught the meaning of the term "seeker sensitive service?"

I've been taught that for our services to be seeker sensitive we must:

First and foremost, make the seeker feel connected to us and to God. No talk of repentance or conversion or being born again in a seeker sensitive service. No talk of what God demands of us. Instead, we should make them feel right at home as if they already belong to the church. We should speak as though they are already reconciled to God and as though God's purpose for being is to make their earthly life better. (And in order for them to feel like they are "one of us" we should be imitating the unsaved in matters of custom such as clothing, hair, language, etc.)

Once they are comfortable enough to seek membership, then begin discipling them to a "deeper understanding of God including the need to be born again."

Is that what seeker sensitive service means? I was in a class where the topic came up, and that WAS NOT how they would define "seeker sensitive". They define it as making it easy for a visitor by:

Being friendly but not singling them out as visitors or embarrassing them.

Helping them find their way around. Be explicit in instructions such as "Let's all pick up the blue book in the rack in front of you. That is the hymnal. Let's all turn to page 100 and sing xyz."

Speaking, singing, and preaching what your church teaches without compromise but without belittling other groups. (Example might be the preacher saying "I am going to read our text today from the KJV. We use this version as the official version of this church" rather than "I am reading from the KJV. If you are reading another version we have a trash can by the door. Feel free to use it on your way out.")

Teaching by example. If you believe in contemporary music, or hymns, or dressing up for church, or dressing casually, or whatever, just do it. Don't make a big issue of it to visitors.

I have to say that the second way makes a lot more sense to me than what I have been taught.

So which is what the "seeker sensitive movement" is all about?

I do not know why my original post did not frame out the original posters words, but, since it left the trame off, I thought I'd try to make my response make more sense that last time.

"Is the "seeker sensitive service" similar to the 1960's Lady Clairol Christians?

In case you are too young to know about these folks, or old enough to remember them, but can not remember the cliche...Lady Clairol Christians were those believers that could only be identified by their hairdresser, who knew for sure the true color of their witness.We used to refer to these folks as Secret Service Saints, because like Lady Clairol Christians, only God knew for sure who they were. They were so stealthy, no one they believed.

Sorry, but, I couldn't help but toss that old cliché out their when I read about the seeker sensitive service. Actually, I know nothing about this group our teaching. I hope someone can shed some light on them..."

Shalom,

Pastor Paul

 

[righteousdude2]

A Good Shepherd will.....

A SS church would never use a KJV. They try to be contemporary in all areas.

The problem with SS churches that I know of are that it's hard for the mature believers to get fed when there are so many unbelievers or new believers in the church. I know several people who left SS churches because of this.

The whole SS issue brings up this question:
Is the church supposed to feed believers or mold itself to attract unbelievers?

A good shepherd must be skilled enough to feed the flock, as well as to promote steady growth, while not compromising the Gospel along the way.

In the area I live in here in southern California, there is this large chain of churches that do a great job in winning souls for the Lord and His Kingdom. However, the standing "joke" between pastors is that our churches usually end up with members from this chain of churches when these newborn babes in Christ start to desire the need for more than the standard "Gerber" type preaching and pablum.

As I said before, a true church will be great at winning souls and nurturing those souls. There should not be a group of churches that save, while another group feeds and leads them.

Pastor Paul :type:

 

[guitarpreacher]

donnA--I'm not sure how to get my info more from the source. Our church studied the "Purpose driven Church" and implemented the actions in the first scenario in my initial post in going seeker sensitive. My question is, did we do what we were supposed to do in following what we perceived to be Saddleback practices, or did we miss the boat?

If what you say is true, not only did you miss the boat, you didn't even hit the lake. PDC is not about being seeker sensitive, it's about church health and balancing the 5 Biblical principles for what a church should be.

Because one of those 5 principles is evangelism, seeker sensitive practices come into play. But, (if you read the book you would pick up on this) RW says repeatedly, that what he did at Saddleback should not be copied because it probably won't work where you are.

Our church strives to be seeker sensitive, but we don't look anything like Saddleback, because SoCal doesn't look anything like Arkansas. What works there, whether you're talking about music, small groups, evangelism, fellowship, or any other aspect of church life, probably won't work here.

Example: I have a friend who planted a new church in the Chicago area, in a neighborhood that was overwhelmingly Catholic. While most of the people in the community were not Christian, they had a preconceived idea of what church is supposed to be. If he had held a worship service that looked like ours, (progressive music, casual dress, coffee and donuts, etc) or if he would have held a traditional Baptist service (piano, hymns out of a hymn book, preaching that resembles throwing a fit :smilewinkgrin: etc.) the people would have been offended and the church, more than likely, would not be able to reach that community. So, when they meet for worship, they have High Church. Lots of big pipe organ, very liturgical order of service, he even wears a robe and clerical collar. It works there and people are getting saved because he is sensitive to what it takes to reach them.

It all comes down to knowing the people you are trying to reach, and doing everything you can to remove the artificial barriers that keep them from coming to Christ. The key word is artificial. The one barrier that can never be compromised or minimized is the cross. It's always amazing to me that people that don't attend seeker sensitive churches always know of many, many churches that compromise the Gospel. I pastor a church that is seeker sensitive. I have many friends who pastor churches that are seeker sensitive. Honestly, I don't know of one single church that is willing to water down the message of salvation in order to attract a crowd.

 

[EdSutton]

So you have a seeker sensitive church? It's a very particular brand of church and I"m surprised you use the KJV in it.

Seeker sensitive doesn't just mean you are sensitive to reaching the lost or sensitive to their needs. A SS church formats its whole church and programs toward the unbeliever. One of the big models of this was Willow Creek, although they've admitted it didn't work (unfortunately, now they seem to be going toward the Emergent model, which is worse, imo). Hundreds of churchs across the US modelled themselves on Willow Creek.

You can't disciple believers and orient the whole church toward the lost the way a SS church does, or at least it's quite difficult. Preaching to the lost is not being seeker sensitive in the way that the term SS church is used. SS is much more than that.

Many SS churches, for example, have no cross in the sanctuary on the building.

Why are you calling your church Seeker Sensitive?

I'm pretty sure my own local church would not be classified as a "Seeker Sensitive" church, these days anyway (we have been around since 1782), except for the fact that we do attempt to win the lost, and minister to, and aid both the community and the body, as well as go on "mission trips" where the aim is both "witnessing/preaching" and "ministry", with this last part being usually in some "construction" project.

I said that, to say this - We also do not have any cross in the auditorium or on the building, per se, although there may be some 'images' of a cross as a small decoration on some object we sometimes use, such as the cover for the communion 'trays.' (We do have a large one we can and do use for some special occasions, that someone made, we can and do hang in the baptristry, and we can 'light up with lights', a 'spot light', or "back light" sometimes, but this object is not a regular feature in our auditorium.) The Lord is not still on any cross, folks! "IT IS FINISHED!!"

Once, for all time! :thumbs:

Our main building has only had a steeple of any kind, for some 5 or 6 years (and the main auditorum was actually constructed in 1850), and the steeple was given by the family, in memory of a young Christian member that tragically died in an automobile accident.

Incidentally, when I became a Christian, and a member of Forks Church, some 45 years ago, we had three 'trays' and two 'plates' we used for the Lord's Supper, and that was sufficient to serve everyone on a Sunday A.M. Service.

Today, we are using 11 trays and 5 or 6 plates, and we probably will soon need more, if we continue to grow at the current rate. We needed no more than 5 trays, about 8 years ago, and didn't start this 'growth spurt' until we went on our first mission trip, then, with four men (to an opportunity presented with about three weeks notice), one who is no longer a member of our church (having now moved due to his work, and was also not able to go on any more), one who has tried to go on about every trip since, but managed to be able to go on only one more some two months ago, due to his work (although his bride has been the mainstay in going and preparing the food for as many as 40 people, on several of the trips), and the other two, the pastor and one of the deacons (who has also been first, the SS director and now, the Sr. High Youth leader) have also gone on several, with many of these trips (now up to about 4 - 6 a year with easily 20 or more participants, usually), both to disaster areas in the US, and also aid to foreign countries. We have made 'trips' of less than an hour's drive away, to several to places such as Brazil, El Salvador, Mobile and New Orleans.

The moderator (that's me) hopes to be physically able to go on the next one, although I have not been physically up to going on any previous trips, due to diabetes, two major surgeries, and a third hospitalization. But the Lord has strengthened me, and I really desire to go on our next trip to New Orleans, if it is possible.

There is nothing 'magical' about these trips, but when our church vision expanded a bit, and our church collectively became "sensitive" as a "seeker" of places where we could serve, as the need and opportunity arose and presented itself, the Lord certainly started blessing our church body, with more and more people both joining by letter, and receiving salvation and many being discipled. :1_grouphug:

We celebrated our 226th year, with our homecoming, this past Sunday.

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition! :thumbs:

Ed

P.S. One more thing. Our pastor usually uses the KJV to 'preach from', and occasionally using another version, and that is his own choice, for we do not have any sort of particular 'guidelines' or suggestions for versions.

And the day any church I'm active in (probably 'Forks') decides tha we WILL be using the NKJV (my own version of choice, actually), the NIV (my Bride's favorite), the KJV (the favorite of many members, I believe, in our church), the HCSB ('the So. Baptist Bible') or any other version, ONLY, I WON'T be there any longer, and the church will be looking for a new Moderator, very quickly.

 

[Aaron]

Psalm 119:10--
"I seek you with all my heart; do not let me stray from your commands."

Jeremiah 29:13--
"You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart."

Acts 15:15-17--
The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
" 'After this I will return
and rebuild David's fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
17that the remnant of men may seek the Lord...' "


Stickin' with that "yes?"

Absolutely and unequivocally, yes. There is none that seeketh after God.

 

[rbell]

Absolutely and unequivocally, yes. There is none that seeketh after God.

Oh well...guess the Scriptures I quoted don't count.

 

[guitarpreacher]

Ladies and Gentlemen

We are "on the horns of a dilemma!!!"

Aaron quoted a verse from Romans 3:11 which states "There is not that seek after God"

But

Rbell quotes from Psalm 119:10 which states, "I will seek after you with all my heart"

Which one is it?? Which verse is true?? They're both true---one is "pre-salvation"---the other is "post-salvation"

Seems to me that Jesus is the REAL "seeker" when He said---"I am come to SEEK and to save those who are lost"

edited by guitarpreacher

 

[donnA]

Ladies and Gentlemen

We are "on the horns of a dilemma!!!"

Aaron quoted a verse from Romans 3:11 which states "There is not that seek after God"

But

Rbell quotes from Psalm 119:10 which states, "I will seek after you with all my heart"

Which one is it?? Which verse is true?? They're both true---one is "pre-salvation"---the other is "post-salvation"

Seems to me that Jesus is the REAL "seeker" when He said---"I am come to SEEK and to save those who are lost"

YEAH!
Someone finally said this.
Before salvation none seek God, after salvation His children seek Him.
Now isn't that simple.

 

[PeterM]

A SS church would never use a KJV. They try to be contemporary in all areas.

The problem with SS churches that I know of are that it's hard for the mature believers to get fed when there are so many unbelievers or new believers in the church. I know several people who left SS churches because of this.

The whole SS issue brings up this question:
Is the church supposed to feed believers or mold itself to attract unbelievers?

I too have heard many leaving SS churches due to the "milk toast" apprach to teaching/preaching.

To answer your question (and assuming we can define the word "attract") can we not agree that both are viable goals for every church. Preaching the Gospel in a loving, compassionate way that sacrifices nothing in the message or desired results will always be attractive to those who desire it. The Word is all sufficient... Principles are non-negotiable. Methods will vary.

Not to hijack the thread, but in my view there is only one seeker... His name is Jesus. Sheep don't seek a shepherd, but THE Shepherd is constantly seeking sheep.

 

[Aaron]

Oh well...guess the Scriptures I quoted don't count.

No, they count. You just don't understand them, and I do.

 

[tinytim]

No, they count. You just don't understand them, and I do.

Let's all bow down to Aaron's understanding and interpretation... based on ONE verse of scripture!

Almighty Aaron... thank you for correcting our misinterpretation. raying:

 

[rbell]

No, they count. You just don't understand them, and I do.

Well, since I don't understand any of them, I won't quote the "Pride goeth before a fall" Scripture...I might mess it up.

 

[michaelbowe]

Burger King has messed everyone up. See they started a slogan of "have it your way" Now churches have to cater to such claims even though the church is not in the fast food business. Churches now have to have coffee shops and media rooms, etc. The positive point of SS church is the fact that many do come to know Jesus. Fantastic, but the theology is that of a buffet, go down the line and oh yeah I would love to have some fellowhip; give me extra forgivness; a double scoup of love; no I don't want any sacrifice; and I think I will pass on the whole tithing thing either" All sillyness aside this is what many SS churches teach, I think we should be seekers, but to cater completely and lose out on others, that would be disgraceful. We are called to equip the saints, and evangelize. Doing one more than the other takes away balance.

 

[Marcia]

I too have heard many leaving SS churches due to the "milk toast" apprach to teaching/preaching.

To answer your question (and assuming we can define the word "attract") can we not agree that both are viable goals for every church. Preaching the Gospel in a loving, compassionate way that sacrifices nothing in the message or desired results will always be attractive to those who desire it. The Word is all sufficient... Principles are non-negotiable. Methods will vary.

I raised that question not so much to get answers (and the OP is on SS churches not how churches should preach) but to provoke thinking on what the purpose of the church is in light of SS churches.

I do not think a church should necessarily try to attract unbelievers, although it should always welcome them. It also should not do anything that would repel people since the gospel is offensive in itself.

What is the point of trying to draw unbelievers if they will get offended by the gospel? This is the point that SS churches missed, imo. They get people in but then have to water down the gospel so no one gets upset and leaves.

I hope no one misinterprets what I'm saying here - I'm trying to make some points but it may sound like something I am not saying.

(Btw, this has nothing to do with the church welcoming visitors or giving the gospel - it should always give the gospel because the chances are high an unbeliever will be attending or visiting).

 

[guitarpreacher]

Burger King has messed everyone up. See they started a slogan of "have it your way" Now churches have to cater to such claims even though the church is not in the fast food business. Churches now have to have coffee shops and media rooms, etc. The positive point of SS church is the fact that many do come to know Jesus. Fantastic, but the theology is that of a buffet, go down the line and oh yeah I would love to have some fellowhip; give me extra forgivness; a double scoup of love; no I don't want any sacrifice; and I think I will pass on the whole tithing thing either" All sillyness aside this is what many SS churches teach, I think we should be seekers, but to cater completely and lose out on others, that would be disgraceful. We are called to equip the saints, and evangelize. Doing one more than the other takes away balance.

Okay, name 3

 

[Aaron]

Let's all bow down to Aaron's understanding and interpretation... based on ONE verse of scripture!

Almighty Aaron... thank you for correcting our misinterpretation. raying:

Well, since I don't understand any of them, I won't quote the "Pride goeth before a fall" Scripture...I might mess it up.

What? Just the two of you? I thought for sure my little assertion would bring most of the Aaron-doggers out of the woodwork.

Though I was merely jerking your chain, isn't that what y'all think of yourselves? In many of your debates the sentiment is veiled quite thinly. I mean, why even post a supposed counter my assertion if you didn't think you had a better understanding?

It appears you thought I made my post without knowing the verses you posted. After all our interaction you thought I was on so shakey ground? I'm surprised at you.

Anyway, blackbird is dead on.

 

[webdog]

YEAH!
Someone finally said this.
Before salvation none seek God, after salvation His children seek Him.
Now isn't that simple.

Not really, becuase if you are His, you don't need to "find" Him.

 

[tinytim]

What is a person doing while God is calling them toward salvation?..

I know people who were seeking something in life, but didn't know what..
They had turned to sex, alcohol, drugs, other religions...
And all along, nothing satisfied them...

God starts drawing them, and they start coming closer to salvation.

This is the ones I call seekers... those that are seeking something.. they don't know it is God... but we know it is.