Have the "gifts of the spirit" ceased?

Atestring said: Is this the most poplar subject on the Baptistboard? This subject stirs lots of interest. I personlaly think that those that write post slamming the gifts of the Spirit are really hungry or they would just ignore the subject.

Briguy, he said is it the most popular subject on the board?

So, no I was not kidding. He was not talking about just this particular thread, but the whole debate section, I think.

Tam,

 

Uhh...Brian, you don't think calling the "Gifts of God" things such as 'tongue talkers,' 'gibberish,' 'not of God,' and of the 'devil' "SLAMMING?"

Better think agian Bunky! Don't worry about it; most know better.

MEE

 

The reason I buy into it is because it is in the Bible.

Mark 6
4. But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
5. And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6. And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

Notice "and HE COULD THERE DO NO MIGHTY WORK"

 

Briguy,

Tongues are of no beneift to the listeners, if there is no interpreter. I see that as one of Paul's main points in the passage you quoted. Tongues _are_ of beneift to the speaker without the gift of interpretation. Even if his understanding is unfruitful, his spirit prays. It is better to pray with both the understanding and with the spirit, as Paul points out. But the one who speaks in tongues, speaks mysteries with his Spirit and edifies himself. If there is no interpeter, he is allowed to speak in tongues and speak to himself and to God, but in the church he must keep silent if there is no interpreter.

How did they know if there was an interpreter? IF the speaker in tongues spoke with an unfruitful mind, in teh sense that he didn't know his own tongue, how would he have been able to know if the interpreter would know whatever language he spoke? I realize there is a gap in our understanding here becuase the Bible doesn't specifiy whether the one gifted to interpret recieves the interpretation as a gift without understanding the words of the tonuge or whether he receives the interpretation as a message without necessarily understanding the tongue. The experience of many who interpret tongues that I have known is the latter. Sometimes more than one person will know the same interpretation for the tongue, even if there is no interpretation.

how would he know if there was an interpreter? Maybe he could ask the congregation. Remember that the Biblical instructions for meeting are different from what a lot of churches do nowadays. There is no mention of one pastor or one long sermon. Instead, people take turns talking. There are specific instructions for turn taking in regard to prophecy and tongues. But apparently the members of the congregation took turns singing and teaching (see v. 26.) These instructions are commandments from the Lord for church meetings. In a turn taking meeting, it isn't inconceivable that someone make a comment about logistics- or ask if someone present has a word of instruction, or an interpretation for a tongue.

 

Amen Link!

 

Link, I am not sure why so many want to by-pass the thought that when someone had the gift of tongues they just plain spoke the language of the person that they were speaking to. If M4H really had the Gift of Tongues (Languages) she would be able to speak to a German speaking person just like she studied German for 25 years. It was a miraculous gift. Just as miraculous was the gift of interpretation of tongues (languages). As the tongue speaker was preaching in the other language an interpreter would stand up and interpret statement for statement what the tongue speaker was saying. We see normal interpretation all the time today when a preacher preaches in a foreign country. It was the same in the early church except that the interpreters could interpret with no previous knowledge of the language they were interpreting. That is what makes those gifts miraculous and why they are part of what I think of as "sign" gifts. Anyway, of what possible benefit could it be whispering another persons language to yourself. How would you know what language to whisper in. The fact is you wouldn't. We pray in english because we speak in english. What Paul was referring to mainly was gibberish being spoken by many who did not have the real gift. The KJV writers put the word "unknown" in where they believed Paul was talking about gibberish. Gibberish would qualify for an "unknown language". The fake tongue folks were praying in gibberish and Paul said "stop that because it is unfruitful". You can pray in your spirit and do all sorts of spiritual things without it being of God. Don't let the word spirit confuse you as to what Paul is saying.

Link, as to Jesus not being able to do miracles. Are you saying that the Son of the living God, no better, the Living God himself, tried to do miracles and failed? Is that what you are saying? You see I worship a God that is "All Powerful" and I am guessing you worship Him as well. You will never get me to believe that the creator of all was unable to do anything.

In Christian Love,
Brian

 

Briguy:

My God is all powerful as well, but OUR faith in His work, (or lack of faith) is connected to the free will He gave us.

He will honor your faith. If you believe that the gifts have ceased, then you won't see them in operation.

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION, so don't even get that idea!!! I'm talking about faith in gifts, not faith in God!

Have a good day.

Tam

 

Brian how did you know that?
Ich liebe Sie Bruder und mache deswegen Jesus. Gott Segnen Sie!

Thats German for: I love you brother and so does Jesus.
God Bless you!

M4H
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Just a thought~
1Cor.14:13
Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

First off take the word "unknown" out. The interpreters of KJ put it in. Now then it leaves you with this....

Wherefore let him that speaketh in an tongue pray that he may interpret.

Question: if I pray in a "tongue" wouldn't I know the interpretation and therefore need not to pray for it? Thats why I take that scripture as saying the "tongue" spoken of.... would be of God therefore it would edify the church "if" I or another prayed and recived the interpretation thereof.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

 

Hi Tam, remember I only believe the "sign" or miraculous gifts were foundational. I believe the other gifts are active and for todays church. Our faith and trust has everything to do with salvation but it is not involved in gifts in the same way. Maybe you said that in a different way. Thanks for the nice post.

M4H, That was a cute post. So, either you just used the true gift of Tongues or you knew German already. I am just guessing that you already knew German. If not, and the words just came to you then I have been wrong and will proudly admit I was wrong. (I hate to be wrong so please tell me I wasn't - ha ha ha ha). M, Thanks for the kindness in your recent posts. We all learn more when Christ-like behavior abounds

As for what you wrote on 14:13. I believe a rebuking Paul here is making a point. He is saying that you "fools" who are just speaking gibberish out loud better have some meaning for those words to share or it is proof you are just faking a gift you don't have. The point is one that Tongues must edify all at the assembly or they are not real or at least out of line. If a person had a real message and was speaking it in a language (or gibberish) that no one understands he better interpret, says Paul or it is wrong because it is a gift for all.

Take care my sisters,
Brian

 

Gee Brian, my Bible doesn't say "fools, gibberish, or faking a gift! Paul didn't say anything like that.

What's wrong with you? Have you been hanging around with the 'wrong' company?

MEE

 

Carol, I was quoting from a rarely used but highly respected translation called the BBTP-E. This translation is said to be the closest ever to the original Greek and Hebrew. Oh the letters stand for:

Brian's Bible Translation Par-Excellance

In Christian Love,
Brian

 

As one who believes in the continued gifts of 1Cor 12 - I say --- True.

In Christ,

Bob

 

As for what you wrote on 14:13. I believe a rebuking Paul here is making a point. He is saying that you "fools" who are just speaking gibberish out loud better have some meaning for those words to share or it is proof you are just faking a gift you don't have. The point is one that Tongues must edify all at the assembly or they are not real or at least out of line. If a person had a real message and was speaking it in a language (or gibberish) that no one understands he better interpret, says Paul or it is wrong because it is a gift for all.

Mark 16:16-17 ~ He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Hey Brian, don't fault me but, Jesus said it and I believe it.

Music4Him

 

You are assming here that the speaker in tongues can choose what tongue he speaks in. In I Corinthians 14, the speaker apparently did not generally know what he was saying, (uttering mysteries with his spirit and his understanding was unfruitful.) Why should we imagine he would get to pick the language he speaks (e.g. German in this case.)

>> As the tongue speaker was preaching in the other language an interpreter would stand up and interpret statement for statement what the tongue speaker was saying.<<

I don't see any indication that tongues were 'preaching' in I Corinthians 14. Paul talks about them in terms of preayer 'speaketh not unto men but unto God' and 'let him speak to himself and to God' and 'for thou verily giveth thanks well, but the other is not edified.'

>Anyway, of what possible benefit could it be whispering another persons language to yourself. How would you know what language to whisper in. The fact is you wouldn't.<<

I don't see any evidence that Paul had gibberish in mind when he spoke of speaking in languages. After talking about his mind being unfruitful if he spoke in tongues, he gives an exmaple of someone who prays in tongues who _gives tanks well_, even if the other was not edified. So apparently the tongeus were real languages, not babbling.

> We pray in english because we speak in english. What Paul was referring to mainly was gibberish being spoken by many who did not have the real gift.<

Can you show me any evidence from scirpture that Paul ad gibberish in mind?

>The KJV writers put the word "unknown" in where they believed Paul was talking about gibberish. Gibberish would qualify for an "unknown language".<

1. Can you show me evidence the KJV translators used 'unknown' to denote gibberish?
2. The KJV writers added 'unknown.' It isn't in the Greek.

> The fake tongue folks were praying in gibberish and Paul said "stop that because it is unfruitful". <

Where does he say this?

>You can pray in your spirit and do all sorts of spiritual things without it being of God. Don't let the word spirit confuse you as to what Paul is saying.<

"For thou verily giveth thanks well" Paul wrote.

>>Link, as to Jesus not being able to do miracles. Are you saying that the Son of the living God, no better, the Living God himself, tried to do miracles and failed? Is that what you are saying? You see I worship a God that is "All Powerful" and I am guessing you worship Him as well. You will never get me to believe that the creator of all was unable to do anything. <<

I'm not saying all these things you are assuming. I refer to scripture, and DHK accuses me of blasphemy, and you ask me questions like this. My answer is found in the verse in Mark I refered to earlier. My point in bringing it up is to show how important faith is in miracles.

 

The speaker did not have much choice in what language he spoke in. It was not a matter of his choice. It was God's choice.
If I went to Saudi Arabia, for example, would it not be evident that if tongues were for today, that the Lord would give me the tongue or language of of Arabic that I might communicate the gospel to them in their own language. But it doesn't work that way. If the Lord led me to such a country, I would have to spend years studying the language first to become fluent in it.
DHK

 

But the truth is that faith is not important in miracles. I have demonstrated that to you in Scripture as well. You have failed to accept it. If faith was important in miracles or in healing, why did Jesus heal in spite of having faith or not. Why did Jesus heal 10 lepers and only one returned to give thanks (as an evidence of his salvation or faith). On many occasions he healed all that came to him, regardless of faith or creed, or whether they had genuine faith in him or not. The same was true of the feeding of the 5,000. Were all 5,000 true believer. Your theory, that the miracles were dependent on faith is full of holes. The Bible does not contradict itself. I would like you to answer this.
DHK

 

DHK, to be a fair, a cessationist, in good physical health, might not pay much attention to this aspect of scripture. On the other hand, I think a lot of Sunday school children can remember these stories about Jesus healing, and remember that faith was invovled.

Below is a long list of verses that show a connection between faith and miracles, particularly healing miracles. Other miracles involved faith, too. Peter was awalking on the water. He saw the wind and waves, and began to sink. Jesus asked him why he doubted. When he stopped believing, he wasn't able to do miracles.

You say no one every did mriacles like Jesus did. I can't find any historical examples of a miracle worker who did miracles as great as Christ did while on the earth, but could there be some not recorded in scripture? Do you agree with Christ's statement:
John 14:12. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.


I meant to reply to this a while back, but time went by and it's hard to find your old message in two threads.

You have not proven that miracles have nothing to do with faith. It is 100% clear from scripture that there is a close relationship between Jesus healing miracles and faith. In addition to the verses that say that Jesus could not and did not do many mighty miracles in Nazareth because of their unbelief, there is a huge number of scriptures that show people being healed in response to faith. Haven't you ever read "According to your faith, be it unto you."

I have a question for you, btw. If the Samaritan lepers did not _believe _ that Jesus could heal them, why would they go to Him asking for healing? They ma not have all had saving faith. John speaks of some Jews who _believed _ on Jesus, and several verses later, Jesus tells them they are of their father the Devil.

Here are scriptures that show the connection. I am sure someone could find other scriptures as well, if they looked.

Galatians 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Acts 14:9-10
9 The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,
10 Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.
Matthew 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
Mark 5:34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
Mark 10:52 And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.
Luke 8:48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.
Luke 17:13-19
13 And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.
14 And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.
15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,
16 And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.
17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?
18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.
19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.
Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.
Mark 10:51-52
ilt thou that I should do unto thee? The blind man said unto him, Lord, that I might receive my sight.
52. And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made th
Matthew 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
Matthew 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.
Matthew 17:19-20
19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Mark 2:5-12
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?
9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.
12 And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.
Mark 11:20-22
20 And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.
21 And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.
22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
Acts 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
Matthew 14:29-31
29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

 

The speaker did not have much choice in what language he spoke in. It was not a matter of his choice. It was God's choice.
If I went to Saudi Arabia, for example, would it not be evident that if tongues were for today, that the Lord would give me the tongue or language of of Arabic that I might communicate the gospel to them in their own language. But it doesn't work that way. If the Lord led me to such a country, I would have to spend years studying the language first to become fluent in it.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]DHK do you believe that God could do that....give you a language that you haven't spoken, so that you could tell sinners about Jesus?

 

I do not limit God. But I say that that is not the way that God operates today, contrary to popular Charismatic belief. If it was, then Charismatics ought to quit deceiving people, stop studying foreign languages immediately, and expect God to give them the foreign language of the mission field that they are going to. If they truly and genuinely believe in tongues, then let them show their faith by their works, as James said. In truth they won't, and that end result is a hypocritical faith.
DHK

 

Search through history as you will. You will never find any person who did the kind of miracles that Christ did, never! And no man ever will. They were unique miracles over nature, time, and space, that man could never accomplish--with or without God's help. They are unique only to God, for that was their purpose--to show the deity of Christ.

As far as John 14:12, of course I believe it; I believe the entire Bible. The question remains: What does the verse mean?

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
--Jesus spent only three years in ministry on this earth--from the time of his baptism to the time of his death. The greater works refer to the time period that we have. Some of us who are saved at 20 or before, and live to 80, have at least 60 years of ministry, or 20 times more the time that Jesus spent on earth. In that time period you should be able to do "greater works." That is, you should be able to reach more people for Christ.

There never was any question that sometimes Jesus related healing to faith. Sometimes you read the statement "be it according to your faith." Sometimes--not all the time. But those are isolated incidents used for our instruction. When you look at the numbers as a whole-great crowds healed--every one of them healed; there were more healed without having faith than there were that had faith. Likewise with miracles. There were more that were fed (5,000+), that were not believers, then were. Faith was not always a requirement.

Regardless, in this day and age God works differently still. Healing ought to be done according to James 5:

James 5:14-15 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
1. If you are sick call for the pastors of the church (elder = pastor)
2. The pastors will pray over the sick, and anoint him with oil.
3. The prayer of faith (i.e., pastors' prayer) will save the sick.

Please note very carefully where the faith comes in. There is no faith mentioned on the part of the sick person. If the sick person does not get well it is one of two reasons:
1. Perhaps it is not God's will (Charismatics traditionally reject this reason)
2. The fault then lies in the faith of the pastor, for it is the faith of the prayer of the pastor that has failed--not the sick person.
--The typical faith healer today is not only a fraud, he is a cruel fraud. He needlessly blames his victim when he doesn't get well for not having enough faith. The truth be told, it is the faith healer that doesn't have enough faith, according to the Scriptures--if he truly believes that the person should be healed. These people are frauds.

God does heal. He heals according to His will. He doesn't heal all the time. He heals in answer to prayer, but always according to His will. Christ will be glorified whether in life or in death, whether in sickness or in health--the name of Christ will be glorified.
DHK