Have the "gifts of the spirit" ceased?

atestring, keep this in mind!

1 Cor.14:2) For he that speaketh in and unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for *no man* understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

**This is one reason why some cannot understand the things that be of God.

1 Cor 2:14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

MEE

 

Has anyone ever read Dr. Willams artical "Why Speak In Tongues?" ? It sheds some light on the topic of tongues.

http://www.cbn.com/SpiritualLife/drwilliams/BK_TheoPilgrim_ch09.asp

Music4Him

BTW, for those who read this artical I would like to hear ya'll sound off as to what bibically you think about the artical. Any bibically proven errors?

 

A few times--enough to know that it causes chaos and pandemonium in the church. It is unbiblical.

I teach the Book of Acts as a college course and I have preached (verse by verse) through the entire book of First Corinthians. I think that that would make me qualified enough to speak on the subject. The extra-Biblicl sources that are close enough to that period of time in history that we still have today are the writings of the church fathers, which I have.

The New Testament gives all the information that we need to know about tongues. It is as exhaustive as God intended it to be.
DHK

 

Have read some of the emails about speaking in tongues and interpretation, and also views on whether the gifts have ceased or not. I was in an AOG Pentecostal church for 11 years when a babe in Christ, and spoke in tongues myself, and sometimes even interpreted. Things were generally done decently and in order. Then I became very concerned about several things, namely that the true tongues were languages and these were all gibberish! I also became aware that when someone laid hands on me for healing, I received something which I passed onto others, and eventually was not happy about. After searching the Word and reading more Evangelical literature, I repented before the Lord for my actions done in ignorance, and since then have moved into the doctrines of grace and out of dispensationalism. I was not healed physically, and have gone on deteriorating over the last 14 years. I accept that the Lord God can heal, if He chooses, for He is Sovereign, but I have not seen any true physical healings take place, though many were manipulated to appear so in the AOG church or charismata. I heard of some healings with the same illness as myself, but in time, they were found not to be so. If God heals, then it would be complete, as in scripture, not an improvement!! No longer do I pray for healing, but for grace and strength to get through each day.
Hope these comments will be useful to the discussion.
Rose

 

I find I agree with member 52,that the true tongues have ceased. Also there are no Apostles today, as the Apostles were the foundation of the church, and there is only one foundation to any building, and this was laid.
I believe there is a counterfeit working in many churches.

Rose

 

Since this ["tongues"; miraculous gifts] is such a long-settled issue with me, I don't waste time reading forums about it or checking out silly TV clowns. Noticing this thread, I will say that I experienced a few wild sensationalistic gatherings years ago. As for 'tongues,' I never saw it done according to I Corinthians 14, which limits it to "2 or at the most 3 speakers, one at a time (v.27)" and that only with an interpreter (v.28). Many meeting are like dope parties, with almost everyone yelling unintelligbily.

As for "miracles" and 'healings'... fie! That's so stupid to have these cohorts ready to come and throw down crutches or canes and see the people scream and cry with "O praise the Lord!!" What it would take to convince me that this stuff is real is for someone with a missing arm or leg miraculously grow another one. But why doesn't that ever happen? The convenient answer from those 'into' this stuff will be that anyone who is not healed "doesn't have enough faith" [a favorite statement of Kenneth Hagin]. What a coicidence that people who throw down crutches always have enough faith, and you never see those with missing limbs, or else that 'no faith' accusation is thrown at them.

Nevertheless, how a Christian praises the Lord personally is just that person's concern. I wouldn't tell anybody not to "pray in tongues" on their own, nor would I tell them not to pray sitting naked in their own closet [something this guy once told me that he did and it helps him stay focused on prayer ]. What you do alone is simply between you and God. But scripture does declare that for public meetings certain rules and testings be followed. No objective test has ever shown me that tongues or miraculous happenings are valid, so I won't take part in it.

 

Why did you respond on this forum if you do not waste your time with forums on this subject?

 

Mee said:

1 Cor.14:2) For he that speaketh in and unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for *no man* understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

**This is one reason why some cannot understand the things that be of God.

1 Cor 2:14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

MEE

Amen MEE, well said!!

Tam

 

A few times--enough to know that it causes chaos and pandemonium in the church. It is unbiblical.

I teach the Book of Acts as a college course and I have preached (verse by verse) through the entire book of First Corinthians. I think that that would make me qualified enough to speak on the subject. The extra-Biblicl sources that are close enough to that period of time in history that we still have today are the writings of the church fathers, which I have.

The New Testament gives all the information that we need to know about tongues. It is as exhaustive as God intended it to be.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Do you believe that a few times qualifies you to be an expert on the subject?

 

Atestring, this question has been answered before (I think many times before). All languages have certain things in common--syntax, grammar, words, sentences, etc. Professional linguistics have gone in and examined what passes off as tongues today (gibberish), and have concluded that what is spoken today is not and cannot be a language. Their is no cohesiveness, no construction to what is being spoken. It is simply a rapid repitition of the same vowel and consonant sounds over and over again. That is not a language. One does not have to know all the languages of the world to discern whether or not it is a language.

Because it is not a language at all, it is called "gibberish," a modern day phenomena that is not found in the New Testament. The reason that the word is not in the Bible is because this type of tongues is not in the Bible. It is purely a modern day phenomena that began at the beginning of the 20th century.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Could you name these Professional Linguistics that you are talking about?

 

Since it got a little buzz out of you, apparently it was not a total waste of time.

 

I believe there are true gifts of tongues, and perhaps even more false ones. It's pretty much a given that Satan will have a counterfeit on the market for anything you can attribute to God. I have a friend who was praying with me once before I became familiar with the phenomenon of tongues, and went into tongues while praying. I thought very little of it, and had no bad or ominous feelings about what happened, I recall thinking at the time that I thought it sounded like Hebrew (or more accurately, what I thought Hebrew would sound like, since I had never heard it). After he had prayed, he said I had a spot that needed God's touch, and laid his hand on my shoulder and prayed again. I really had not paid that much attention to it, but my shoulder had been bothering me all day, and with the touch and the prayer, the discomfort all went away. I may not know what he prayed, and I may not be able to tell you all the Bible has to say about it, but I know that what was said and done that day was genuine.

On the other hand, I've seen some who claim the gift and strut around on a stage for show, and repeat certain pat phrases over and over. No one has to explain to me that this does not come from God.

The idea that this gift has "ceased" in some way is a misunderstanding of Paul in 1 Corinthians 13. The declaration is 3-fold:

(1) Prophecies will fail.
(2) Tongues will cease.
(3) Knowledge will vanish away.

So unless we are willing to acknowledge that prophecies have failed, and knowledge has vanished away, perhaps we shouldn't be so quick to dismiss tongues either. That's not to say that prophecies ought to be considered of no value, or knowledge either. Paul says we do those things "in part," and by implication, he suggests that tongues are included in that group of things done "in part" as well: they are all impartial, there will come a time when they will not be needed. That time described is the time when the perfect has come.

Verse 12 continues the thought, using another comparison: rather than "in part," it is described as "in a mirror, dimly." But when that which is perfect has come, it will be "in full," that is, "face to face," and to "know as I am known." I know of only one perfect Person, who lives in the only perfect Place, I know about, and that is Jesus Christ, the King of Heaven.

It's simple translation, really, it's made complicated only by the efforts of people who have seen only the false gift and have opened the umbrella wide to include all forms of it, and need to find support for their foregone conclusions. The little catchphrase of "tongues shall cease" provides a nice little out-of-context "statement" that can be used to create support for a position that does not exist. Remember, Paul says at the conclusion of this 3-chapter context, "do not forbid to speak with tongues."

Of course, there are some who stretch things even worse. I saw one interpretation where some creative geniuses got togther with a Greek Bible and took that last phrase apart until they turned it completely around. "Forbid," they said, also means "hinder"; "speak" has the same connotations as "communicate"; and "with" can also be interpreted "by means of." Using this little framework of selective semantics, and noting that Paul reminds the Corinthians that the ultimate goal of any kind of communication, be it tongues or otherwise, was to be understood and thus to edify: therefore, this phrase ought to be interpreted, "Do not hinder communication that edifies, by speaking in languages that no one understands."

While they may have earned "A's" for creativity, they earned "F's" in interpretive ability.

Nothing wrong with showing emotions in worship, no problem if the gift is a true gift that comes genuinely by the Spirit who gives the gift. But like someone explained to me once, "I'd be rather suspect of someone's gratitude, if they were given a watch for Christmas, and went on and on about the gift rather than the one who gave it to them."

Also, nothing wrong with letting loose and experiencing "freedom" in the ways of worship. But when someone tells me, "It just comes over me, I can't help it," I have to wonder how that reconciles with the clear word that "the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets," and also with the spiritual fruit of "self-control."

TW

 

DHK: It not only depends on 1or.13:8-13, but also on the totality of Scripture that supports the same teaching, i.e,, tongues have ceased.

1. 1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
--Out of all the gifts mentioned in all three of these chapters (12,13,14), love is the only one that will endure forever. All other gifts will cease at some point in time. That includes faith and hope (mentioned in 13:13). They will cease at the coming of Christ, for then we will see him as he is, and will have no more need of either hope or faith. We walk by faith and not by sight. Christ is our hope. When he comes we no longer need faith or hope. Thus at his coming these two, faith and hope, will cease--but love will continue forever. It will be the only gift to continue forever. Therefore it is called the greatest of all the gifts.

In verse 8 three other gifts are mentioned, but it is evident that they are only temporary in nature. They will pass away, cease, vanish. These are not as great as love, and will not last as long as faith and hope. They are temporary. They will cease before faith and hope. This is a comparison that Paul is making.
Love will endure forever.
Faith and hope will last until the Coming of Christ.
But the Spiritual gifts ended with the Apostolic Age, and the completion of the Bible.

The Corinthians knew in part--they had part of the entire Word of God--the Old Testament.
Therefore they prophesied in part. God gave them the gift of prophecy (as well as that of tongues and revelatory knowledge) to make up for the knowledge of the New Testament that they did not have yet. For the New Testament was not yet complete. Therefore: "We know in part, and we prophesy in part."

"But when that which is perfect (the completed Word of God) is come, then that which is in part (the temporary sign gifts of tongues, prophecy, and revelatory knowledge) shall be done away."
That is what happened. By the time the Bible was completed with the writing of the Book of Revelation these gifts had ceased.

Gina: I can't help but think you're adding to these verses.
Paul says that now we prophesy in part, then goes on to say that which is in part shall be done away. The only thing in part mentioned was prophecy. Why do you include all spiritual gifts into that verse when it isn't there?

DHK: They had passed out of existence, and history seems to verify this.

Gina: History has verified that we are of little faith and becoming less God-fearing at a rapid pace. The scriptures verify that spiritual blessings and gifts are with-held from those who lack faith.

DHK: However our case does not rest on this one passage alone. That is why I have been challenging you on a couple of other points (and not backing down), for which you have no answer.

2. Tongues are a sign for the unbelieving Jew (the unbelieving nation of Israel). 1Cor.14:21,22
In the above reference Paul quotes a prophecy from Isaiah 28:11,12. The prophecy is fulfilled before their very eyes. It is that God would give the nation of Israel ("this people") a sign--men of other nations would speak to them with other tongues, and still they would not hear the Lord. Though God would speak His message to them in foreign languages, they still would not listen. That was the sign. The consequence--judgement. Jerusalem was razed to the ground--destroyed by Titus in 70 A.D., and the nation of Israel dispersed. Tongues fulfilled its purpose in this way also, and thus ceased by the end of the first century.

Gina: The verse in Isaiah you refer to does not compare to the spiritual GIFT of tongues. It is speaking of a foreign language.

To compare the gift of speaking in a foreign language that one has not studied to speaking in a foreign language because that's what you speak anyhow does not make any sense. Paul here seemed to be pointing out that using tongues within the church was pointless, as it helped unbelievers. Believers should listen and understand prophecy, and if they did not how much less of use would speaking in tongues be? Those in disobedience to God do not understand no matter what the method of delivery.

DHK: 3. In contrast to today, Biblical tongues were actual foreign languages--not the gibberish or glossalalia that is heard today. What is heard today among Pentecostal and Charismatic circles is practiced in the occult, other world religions like Hindus, other cults like Mormons, and under every brand of "Christianity" such as Catholicism, whether they be true believers or not. How then can it be of God?

Gina: It is illogical to say that because you have seen something exist in a false form, there is no true form of it. I agree, what you hear in charismatic churches is usually gibberish. As Paul points out, the gift of tongues was given to believers for the sake of unbelievers.

DHK: 4. In contrast to Biblical times, as the Bible teaches in 1Cor.14:34,35, it was, and still is forbidden for women to speak in tongues in the church at all. Let the women keep silence in the churches. That is a straight forward command. It is forbidden for them to speak. He emphasizes the command by repeating it. He repeats it a third time in different words: If they will learn anything let them ask their husbands at home. And yet, still once more--a fourth time, Paul reiterates himself--It is a shame for women to speak in church.
FOUR times in two verses he commands the women to keep quiet or to shut up! One would think that understanding of these verses would come rather easily.

Gina: You would think, huh?
Are you keeping these verses in context? Do they not come surrounded by talk about gifts? These verses say that a woman cannot teach, preach, or debate during the church service. Not Sunday school, not in general, not referring to giving testimonies or having discussions or singing or otherwise making a sound, but in doing those things which would show authority over a man, such as praying on behalf of the church or teaching.
HOW does this say that tongues have ceased? It doesn't. It says tongues are here and exist, but women are not to use the gift while they are in church.

DHK: 5. Tongues, i.e., foreign languages, were only to be spoken in a church, with an interpreter, and with a maximum number of 3 people only.

Gina: Where did you get that from? If anything, Paul seems to emphasize that tongues are not to be used in the church.
1COR 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

1COR 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?


DHK: 6. The gift of tongues was not given to every person, and nowhere in Scripture is any person ever commanded to seek for the gift of tongues.

Gina: How does this prove tongues have ceased?

DHK: 7. In 1Cor.12:28, where all the spiritual gifts are listed in order of importance, tongues is listed at the bottom of the list as least important. It was the least of all the gifts--the one that mattered least.

Gina: How does this prove tongues have ceased?

DHK: 8. When you read through the 12th chapter of 1Corinthians you see how insignificant tongues really is. Paul gives the illustration of the human body to illustrate the church--the local church at Corinth. That is who he was addressing. Each member in that church had a particular function, a duty, and some had certain special gifts. Now think how many different parts your body has. One of my college courses was human anatomy and physiology, so it may be easier for me to think of this than you. Believe me, we have a lot of "parts" to our bodies. Paul refers to those parst as members. We are many members that make up one body. But not every member can be the hand, or the head, or the eye. In other words Paul was saying not everyone has the same gift. We all have different gifts and abilities. Here is how he ends the chapter:

1 Corinthians 12:29-30 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

The obvious answer to the above questions is NO. It was not God's will for all to speak in tongues, or for all to have all of the gifts. Only a few of the individuals were blessed with the gift of tongues--perhaps just a very few. Others were jealous and envious of those few. That's where the problems relative to the gift of tongues started, and that is why Paul spent so much time correcting the abuse of tongues.
The abuse of the gift goes on today.
The actual gift of tongues ceased almost 2,000 years ago.

Gina: You insist that tongues are insignificant.
No gift of God is insignificant.
There are problems and abuses with any gift.
For example, a pastor can falsely interpret the scriptures and teach it to others. Does this make the gift of teaching insignificant?
You have so far presented nothing that definitively shows that tongues have ceases apart from bold statements claiming tongues have ceased. In fact, you have not even shown it "in part" imo.
"Because I said so" isn't a valid method of proving a statement.

 

A parallel question/example.
Concerning drugs: cocaine, marijuana, crack, heroin, etc.
A. Who is the more qualified? The person who takes them?
B. The person who observes the people taking them?
C. The Chemists that know exactly what is in each drug, and how they are put together, and the effects that they will have--both short term and long term?

I have the Bible. I don't have to observe those that are on their highs of speaking tongues. That is not what qualifies a person. A thorough knowledge of the textbook, the guidebook, is what is needful. Random experience without careful instruction is foolishness. Would you like the "experience" of heart surgery from a waiter or janitor?
DHK

 

Gina had said:
There are problems and abuses with any gift.

Exsactly! Thats why 1Cor. was written. Paul was answering their letter to him.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Also concidering what you have both (DHK & Gina) said about women keeping silence. I thought women prayed and prophesied according to 1Cor.11:5? What came the word of the Lord to men only? Can either of you tell me which commandment of the Lord that is that says women should keep silence and what Book, chapter, and verse it can be found in the old testament? Acknowledge it.

Music4Him

1Corinthians 14:39
Wherefore, brethren(male and females), covet not to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

 

DKH,
Tommorrow is Pentecost Sunday.
May you be blessed as those in those 120 were blessed on That Sunday in Jerusalem. It was also the day ( according to Rabinnical Tradition) that the Law of Moses was given. May God Write His laws on your heart and May The Holy Spirit do a work in Your heart as He did on that day.

HAPPY PENTECOST SUNDAY
Atestring

 

A parallel question/example.
Concerning drugs: cocaine, marijuana, crack, heroin, etc.
A. Who is the more qualified? The person who takes them?
B. The person who observes the people taking them?
C. The Chemists that know exactly what is in each drug, and how they are put together, and the effects that they will have--both short term and long term?

I have the Bible. I don't have to observe those that are on their highs of speaking tongues. That is not what qualifies a person. A thorough knowledge of the textbook, the guidebook, is what is needful. Random experience without careful instruction is foolishness. Would you like the "experience" of heart surgery from a waiter or janitor?
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]As far as heart surgery goes I would want the experience of a qualified heart specialist, heart care nurses who deal with the patients after surgery, and from people who accually went through the surgery. The same would be with spiritual gifts...the qualified gift giver Holy Spirit, the scriptures to back it up preached bya preacher who know his stuff, and others who has the authentic gift.

 

~HAPPY PENTECOST SUNDAY~
To you also ~atestring~, and to all on the Baptist Board!

Music4Him

 

Yes, I listed the ones that said women were not to do these things, IN CHURCH. It did not say they were not to do other things, like talk or sing or praise.
I also wonder if that pertained to the unmarried or widowed. It's hard to go home and ask your husband if you don't have one.
Gina

 

It is 1Cor.13:8 that mentions all three of these gifts. All three are prophetic gifts. Paul uses but one as an example. Tongues was a form of prophecy--it was prophecy in a foreign language. That is why it is compared to prophecy in chapter 14. Knowledge (reveletory knowledge) or knowledge revealed by God, is that which is used in prophecy. The two go hand in hand. There is no adding to Scripture. It is taking the Scripture in its context and understanding what Paul is saying.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

History from the last 1900 years does not verify the Biblical gift of tongues. If it does, give evidence. Otherwise, what you are implying is that there have been no Godly Christians and no spiritual blessings for almost 2,000 years--an unlikely story.

You are confused Gina. The gift of speaking in tongues was the gift of speaking in a foreign language, and always has been. Tongues has never been gibberish; it always has been real verified known languages--a gift from God--languages unknown to the speaker, but known to the hearer:

Acts 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

Acts 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
--This was the gift of tongues--speaking in the languages of those that came, foreign languages to the Galileans that were speaking them.

They didn't speak in a foreign language naturally; they spoke in a foreign language supernaturally. That was the gift of tongues or languages. What is your mother tongue (English?). The word tongue simply means language. It is a gift of languages.
The people in disobedience were the Jews. They had crucified the Lord. The tongues were a sign--a prophetic sign which they knew about because of the prophecy in Isaiah 28. This sign was given to the Jewish nation, the unbelieving Jewish nation. If they rejected this sign also, they would be judged. They did reject it and they were judged. It was not a sign to unbelievers in general. It was a sign to the unbelieving nation of Israel. (1Cor.14:21,22).

The true gift of tongues ceased by the end of the first century. There is no true form of it today. If there is point to it. It was a gift of Biblical genuine foreign languages, given as a sign to the unbelieving nation of Israel, before the canon of Scripture was complete. Do those conditions exist today? No.

You don't like the teaching given in 1Cor.14:34,35, Gina? Take your argument up with God, not with me. I didn't write it; He did. It says that women are to keep silence in the churches. That's a pretty direct statement. And yes, I am keeping these verses in context, are you? What is the context? The context is tongues. Women are to keep silent in tongues, specifically. They are not allowed to speak in tongues--period. That is the context. If all the women ceased speaking in tongues today, the movement would shut down fairly quickly. But they choose to disobey Scripture instead. BTW, it doesnt' say that tongues are here and exist. Where do you get that from?

Read the whole chapter Gina.
First, every spiritual gift was given to the local church to edify the church. What about the gift of administration? Who are they going to administrate, if not the church? The prophets prophecy to the members of the church, that the body of the local church may be edified. The entire chapter (14) speaks of the edification and understanding of the local church. Every gift was given for the church. There was no gift given as a selfish gift, that is for personal use only. What about the gift of helps--was it given just "to help yourself" No, it was given to help others--others in the local church. All the gifts were like that. Paul was writing to the church at Corinth, in answer to their questions and problems (1Cor.7:1).

1 Corinthians 14:27-28 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
--At the most 2 or 3 could speak, and they had to speak one by one ("that by course")
--It was absolutely necessary that there be an intrpreter. It was done in the church--all the time.

1COR 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
--This is what happened. The whole church came together in one place. Many or most spoke in tongues at the same time. Strangers would think that they were mad. This was a stinging rebuke.

It doesn't prove by itself that tongues have ceased. I have already provided that evidence. It does show that the Charismatic theology is totally out of place and unblbilical. They teach that all should speak in tongues and that all should seek for the gift of tongues. Nowhere does the Bible teach such a thing.

Again, just pointing out the unbiblical position of the Charismatics. It is the least of all the gifts, not the most important as they seem to think it is.

Even in the first century tongues was an insignificant gift when ranked with importance to the others. That is why Paul put it at the end of the list of gifts when listed in order of importance. Falsely iterpreting a passage of Scripture is completely different than abusing a supernatural gift. This was a supernatural gift of God that was being abused. Your comparison is apples and oranges. Even the spiritual gift of teaching in the first century is different than the ability or talent of teaching today. In the first century God gave to some a supernatural gift of teaching. That was the nature of the spiritual gift. They were supernatural in nature. We don't have those gifts any longer. They were gifts which set apart the Apostles from the others. The Apostles were set apart from the others by the signs and wonders which they were able to do, by the supernatural gift which they possessed.

When that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part is done away. The spiritual gifts (esp. prophecy, tongues, revelatory knowledge) will have been done away. The perfect Word of God has come. The pronoun "that" is in the neuter gender, referring to the Word of God. Because it is in the neuter gender, it eliminates many other options such as Jesus Christ, HIS return, and so on. One of the few options, and one that supports the context and harmonizes with other Scripture is the Word of God.
DHK