Have Ye Believed in Vain?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

LB: 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

I don't think we are to know the difference;

Mt 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

HP: I would agree that in this world you or I will never know the true state of the heart of those within the walls of the Church. I believe there are some that we will no doubt know are believers and can take it to the bank so to speak. I believe this passage tells us clearly a way in which to tell those that are continuing in the faith. It tells us clearly who will in the end make it in. It does not say those OSAS, or those that have entered in at one time to the hope of eternal life, or those that have exercised faith in Christ at one point in time, although we know full well that such is a necessity for any sure hope of eternal life. No, Scripture points us to yet another condition apart from faith that will determine those that make it in.

I know how hard this is going to be on some holding to ‘faith alone’ and OSAS, but we are going to have to face it as solid Scriptural truth if we are going to take the whole Word of God. It tells us plainly that those in the end that will be of the redeemed, will be gathered OUT OF, or AWAY FROM, those that “do iniquity.” So much for the false notion that the saints are still just a bunch of liars or sinners or that sin will not separate us from the faith we thought we had. “Without holiness, no man shall see God.”

 

[steaver]

“Without holiness, no man shall see God.”

Your own?

or

the righteouness of God?

Rom 3:23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 3:24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Quote:
“Without holiness, no man shall see God.”

Steaver: Your own?

or

the righteouness of God?

HP: It speaks to both actually. God alone can forgive mans sins and make him pure and holy. Just the same once purified by faith we indeed are to live a holy life which is not without the formation of pure and holy intents in line with obedience to God’s Word. I believe the Scripture is admonishing us to live holy and righteous before God, without which no man shall see Him. There is a separation in the future between God and those that do iniquity and those that are pure before Him in obedience.

“Show me thy faith without thy works but I will show you my faith by my works, for faith without works is dead being alone,” is the admonishment of Scripture.

 

[steaver]

HP: It speaks to both actually. God alone can forgive mans sins and make him pure and holy. Just the same once purified by faith we indeed are to live a holy life which is not without the formation of pure and holy intents in line with obedience to God’s Word. I believe the Scripture is admonishing us to live holy and righteous before God, without which no man shall see Him. There is a separation in the future between God and those that do iniquity and those that are pure before Him in obedience.

So Jesus' sacrifice for sin was not adequate in and of itself to save those who believe in Him?

God Bless! raying:

 

[LeBuick]

I believe this passage tells us clearly a way in which to tell those that are continuing in the faith. It tells us clearly who will in the end make it in. It does not say those OSAS, or those that have entered in at one time to the hope of eternal life, or those that have exercised faith in Christ at one point in time, although we know full well that such is a necessity for any sure hope of eternal life. No, Scripture points us to yet another condition apart from faith that will determine those that make it in.

I can respect your view however I don't see this passage dealing with eternal security in any way. I believe the wheat was always wheat from from the seed that was planted (not in the sence of predestination as the Church was graffed in (Rom 11:19). Likewise the tare was always tare from the seed that was planted among the wheat by the sowers enemy. I say this from v26 where it says the sowers servants spotted the tare from the time the first blade sprung up. I view those servants as the angels who will harvest in the end.

Like trustitl pointed out, my understanding is the two plants are so similar that not everyone (if any human) can tell one from the other. Also, the roots mingle and intertwine together so that it's impossible to remove the tare without also uprooting the wheat.

I see this passage first saying there will be surprises come harvest time. I believe there are some we thought were "take to the bank" wheat that will be tossed out with the tare. AND there will be some we swore were tare that will stand with the wheat (Mt 25:31-46).

Secondly this passage warns the Church in practicle application why we should not view one another from a perspective of "I know he is saved" and "I know he will burn in hell". The roots of the saved and unsaved in the Church are so mingled and intertwined together that it's impossible to remove one without uprooting the other.

I know many of us don't like tele-vangilist but the truth is every stone we throw at them is also hitting the Church whether we believe they are in the Church or not. There is so much many of us feel shouldn't be in the Church but if we make any effort to remove it, our effort would prove counter to the Church as a whole. Jesus dealt with this when his disciples discovered Men who were working in the name of Jesus yet was not following the ways of truth.

Mk 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

Should hip-hop be in the Church? Who knows but don't try and remove it.
Should prosperity teaching be in the Church? Who knows but don't try and remove it.
Are we still to live according to the law and worship on the Sabbath? Who knows but those who do are not against us.

 

[TCGreek]

I do some farming so I will give it a try:

Wheat is a grain that is currently trading for around $11/bushel because the demand is so high. It is very useful for grinding to be made into bread and used for human consumption around the world.

Tares is a term used to describe a plant that Jesus said to let grow with the wheat. This is the best description I could find for tares:

The Greek word translated "tares" is ζιζάνια (zizania), plural of ζιζάνιον (zizanion). This word is thought to mean darnel.

Lolium temulentum
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lolium temulentum, typically known as darnel or cockle, is an annual plant that forms part of the Poaceae family and part of the Lolium genus. The plant stem can grow up to 1 meter tall, with inflorescence in the ears and purple grain. It grows plentifully in Syria and Israel.

It usually grows in the same production zones as wheat and is considered a weed. The similarity between these two plants is so extensive that in some regions cockle is referred to as "false wheat." It bears a close resemblance to wheat until the ear appears.

Thank you so much Trustitl for that insightful info.

I was alluding to the TNIV's "wheat/weeds" rather than the traditional "wheat/tares."

But you put everything into proper perspective for us.

Jesus knew what he was speaking of.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: So Jesus' sacrifice for sin was not adequate in and of itself to save those who believe in Him?

HP: God simply did not design it to be a literal payment for sin as you obviously believe is the case. The death sufferings of Christ paid no literal payment fro anyones individual sin, nor could they have. It was a substitution aimed at a satisfaction of the penalty for all the sins of the world that God accepted as payment for the penalty rightfully owed by every individual, IF and when the individual complies to the mandated conditions God set forth, i.e., repentance and faith. Scripture no wise establishes a literal payment for individual sins accomplished by the sufferings and death of Christ nor does it ever establish that sins are forgiven or set aside antecedent to repentance and faith. That is a Calvinistic notion that lies at the heart of error in ones conception of what Christ accomplished on the cross. No individual sin of any man is remitted or set aside until the sinner themselves repent, exercise faith, and consequently receives forgiveness for their sins.

Such a view of a literal payment as you obviously espouse will logically land one in the trap of selective deterministic fatalism with double predestination the only logical end of such a false argument.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

LB: I say this from v26 where it says the sowers servants spotted the tare from the time the first blade sprung up. I view those servants as the angels who will harvest in the end.

HP: Then how can you then say the following?

LB: Like trustitl pointed out, my understanding is the two plants are so similar that not everyone (if any human) can tell one from the other. Also, the roots mingle and intertwine together so that it's impossible to remove the tare without also uprooting the wheat.

LB: Secondly this passage warns the Church in practicle application why we should not view one another from a perspective of "I know he is saved" and "I know he will burn in hell".

HP: Paul certainly viewed some as fellow believers, confident that they would stand firm unto the end. Are you certain we should not view some as ‘I know he or she is saved?’ All though we do not know whether or not some will repent and exercise faith in Christ before it is too late, can we not say, standing upon the certain Word of God, that unless they repent and exercise faith they will not inherit the Kingdom of God? I would certainly think so. I do not believe I could ever stand and say categorically that any man will find his home without question in hell. But I do believe that is the only hope that many are now entertaining, and apart from a changed heart, believing and living in obedience to God and His Word, that hell will be their final home. Would you not agree?

I certainly appreciate the kind way you address the other even when you do not agree.:thumbs: I hope I always do the same.

 

[LeBuick]

Then how can you then say the following?

I might be misunderstanding your question but I believe man is neither the sower, servant or reaper. If I missed your point please clarify.

HP: Paul certainly viewed some as fellow believers, confident that they would stand firm unto the end. Are you certain we should not view some as ‘I know he or she is saved?

Each Sunday no matter where I stand I refer to the congragation as, "The Saints". I am no way implying all present are saved or not but I am sure the title is correct for some if not all. I could also say "fellow believers" to a Church and be equally confident that some would stand firm unto the end. Those who stand firm unto the end are the they that Paul addressed.

 

[Emily25069]

Do you ever wonder...

if you are a tare?

I do.

I hope Im not, but sometimes I get scared that in the end I am going to be in for a horrible surprise.

 

[TCGreek]

Your faith in Jesus should have sealed the deal for you:

"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory" (Eph 1:13, 14, TNIV, emphasis mine).

 

[Emily25069]

but it also says that there are some who at the end will say "Lord Lord" and He will say that he never knew them.

That is the part that scares me.

 

[trustitl]

if you are a tare?

I do.

I hope Im not, but sometimes I get scared that in the end I am going to be in for a horrible surprise.

Emily,

I will be praying that "the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus."

I read your profile and those little ones that you are teaching at home will benefit from a mom who thinking about "whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report". I know when I focus on myself and my pitiful faith I am never encouraged. However, when I am looking to the promises of God the things of earth look strangly dim.:godisgood:


By the way in your profile I saw that you are a Southern Baptist and don't know how to change it. Just go to a different churrch :laugh: .

Greeting by the way from an hour away. We are teaching our 6 kids at home too. Don't be discouraged, you are doing the Lord's work!

 

[Emily25069]

Changing southern baptist

haha

we have switched churches. I went into my profile to try and switch it and it wasnt there to switch.

Thank you for the prayers.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TrustitL: We are teaching our 6 kids at home too. Don't be discouraged, you are doing the Lord's work!

HP: We as well home schooled six all but a few years with two of ours, our oldest and our youngest. My wife is to be thanked for that far more than I. Anyway, we indeed have shared a lot of like experiences I am certain! Keep up the good work!! We have run the race just this last year with our youngest finishing up High School.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Emily: but it also says that there are some who at the end will say "Lord Lord" and He will say that he never knew them.

That is the part that scares me.

HP: Trust in the Lord with all thy heart. 2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:” “1Th 5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it!”

If we remain obedient He will indeed see us through till the end!

There is a reward far greater than one can imagine later on in life for all the hard work and diligence one puts into building relationships with your children via home schooling. It will not return to you void. Keep up the good work!!

 

[LeBuick]

if you are a tare?

I do.

I hope Im not, but sometimes I get scared that in the end I am going to be in for a horrible surprise.

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

I agree with the others Emily that you really should not have anything to fear. The fact that you fear shows your respect and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. You'd be surprised how many people in the Church feel their worthiness is a product of their own actions. I currently have a member who once told me, "I didn't come to Church because I had sinned, I just wanted something to do on Sunday." I am the first to tell anyone if you have no sin then you have no need of a saviour.

If you go to the text at the beginning of this thread you will see it began with some who didn't believe in the resurrection. That is a crucial part of the Gospel and the reason they fell short of the Glory.