Have you ever commited a crime that you didnt get caught for?

[Palatka51]

But lets just say that the preacher commits that felony---that shoplifting episode---that purse snatching----and the cops have no clue its him---and he gets up on Sunday morning and preaches---and he is the only person who knows what he did--the listeners have no clue as to the preacher has even committed that crime--but the preacher knows--and opts not to turn himself in----and the listeners go on like he's "next to Jesus"----but yet the preacher knows what he did

What should he do??

Can a king continue to rule after he has committed adultery and murder? Yes, if he repented and God forgives.

This Pastor's sins will find him out as did king David's. If this preacher does not follow David's example no one would ever consider him a minister of God.

 

[John Toppass]

Thats why I said "by today's standards". I realize that persecuting Christians was according to the law in his day, but my point is that if he had been persecuting christians in our day that we would never truely trust him even after his conversion, and surely wouldnt want him as a pastor. The things he did that were according to the law in his day would be considered felonies today.

I was thinking about this thread as I was trying to go to sleep last night and it occurred to me that we have to be very careful in deciding what sins are worse than others, and who is a worse sinner than we are. When we start disqualifying people from serving the Lord based on their past, or by our own human standards, then we are bordering on self-righteousness.

I heard a sermon some years ago that I will always remember. the pastor was talking about judging others. He said that we must always remember that when we compare ourselves to someone that we feel is a terrible sinner that we have to remember that its only by the Grace of God that we are not like them.

AJ

We can only apply law where the law is in effect at the time. As far as biblical and spiritual laws are concerned, Paul did suffer consequence and had to gain trust with those who never trusted him in the first place.

What are some specific situations in which you are talking about. As far as the pastor who has committed a crime, he should do as God guides him, (God will guide him) if the church has lost trust in him then that is some of the consequence of his sin. The Bible is specific on what qualifies pastors, bishops, overseers, elders and deacons to hold those positions. I am not aware of any once qualified always qualified offices or positions in the church. There is a expectation of behavior for people who are in these positions. Do you have any other specific situations or examples in mind.

 

[ajg1959]

We can only apply law where the law is in effect at the time. As far as biblical and spiritual laws are concerned, Paul did suffer consequence and had to gain trust with those who never trusted him in the first place.

What are some specific situations in which you are talking about. As far as the pastor who has committed a crime, he should do as God guides him, (God will guide him) if the church has lost trust in him then that is some of the consequence of his sin. The Bible is specific on what qualifies pastors, bishops, overseers, elders and deacons to hold those positions. I am not aware of any once qualified always qualified offices or positions in the church. There is a expectation of behavior for people who are in these positions. Do you have any other specific situations or examples in mind.

No specific examples. What got me on this topic was a conversation where people seemed to imply that sins that happen to be against the law are worse sins and disqualify one from church service, and the key seemed to be a conviction by the public court.

My point is simply that many people hold church offices that have commited crimes against the state but were never caught, sp getting caught seems to be worse than actually committing the crime.

I do have one circumstance to ask about tho. What about getting or paying for an abortion? Abortion is legal, but to me it is a far worse crime than most of our crimes that we prosecute today.

What about that?

AJ

 

[John Toppass]

No specific examples. What got me on this topic was a conversation where people seemed to imply that sins that happen to be against the law are worse sins and disqualify one from church service, and the key seemed to be a conviction by the public court.

My point is simply that many people hold church offices that have commited crimes against the state but were never caught, sp getting caught seems to be worse than actually committing the crime.

I do have one circumstance to ask about tho. What about getting or paying for an abortion? Abortion is legal, but to me it is a far worse crime than most of our crimes that we prosecute today.

What about that?

AJ

I do not find any scripture that would prevent someone from holding a position in the church because they had obtained an abortion that is legal by man's law.

BUT (you knew there had to be a but) I could not nor would I accept or serve under someone who condoned abortion. I would have a problem with even having Christian fellowship with another person proclaiming to be Christian but condoned abortion. To me, that person would be knowingly living in unrepentant sin.

If this was a past sin, I think there would still be a matter of trust that would have to be recovered through their actions of repentance and fruits of works in the Spirit. It took Paul 3 years to gain the trust of other believers, yet he persevered and gained that trust. Remember Paul went from a well respected position before conversion to that of a believer when they were being persecuted. Trust is not the same as forgiveness. Trust is something that is earned. (especially trust that has been lost) While forgiveness is administered by Grace which is immediate.

 

[MB]

David was a murder, an adulterer, a liar, and a thief. Yet He was a prophet of God. A man after God's own heart. He had such a faith in God that he defeated a giant.
As far as getting away with it, he did where men are concerned but, God always catches you in the end.
MB

 

[ajg1959]

I do not find any scripture that would prevent someone from holding a position in the church because they had obtained an abortion that is legal by man's law.

BUT (you knew there had to be a but) I could not nor would I accept or serve under someone who condoned abortion. I would have a problem with even having Christian fellowship with another person proclaiming to be Christian but condoned abortion. To me, that person would be knowingly living in unrepentant sin.

If this was a past sin, I think there would still be a matter of trust that would have to be recovered through their actions of repentance and fruits of works in the Spirit. It took Paul 3 years to gain the trust of other believers, yet he persevered and gained that trust. Remember Paul went from a well respected position before conversion to that of a believer when they were being persecuted. Trust is not the same as forgiveness. Trust is something that is earned. (especially trust that has been lost) While forgiveness is administered by Grace which is immediate.

I asked my pastor about this debate tonight and he said that both sides of this debate have valid points.

He said that the biblical way to deal with a persons past sins in some cases would to be to proceed with caution, and let the trust build up over time. He said what some of you have been saying, that trust and forgiveness are two seperate things, or at least they are supposed to be, and that he would be very hesitant to put a sex offender in charge of children, but that doesnt mean that there arent other ministries that a sex offender could serve in, or that over time the offender couldnt be restored to the full trust of the church.

But, (and here comes my but) he said that the biblical application of this is very hard to accomplish within a congregation. He said it is very hard for folks to seperate trust and unforgiveness, and for folks to allow time for trust to be restored without constantly harping on the original sin that caused the trust to be lost. He said that if he cheated on his wife and she forgave him, that it might take many years for her to trust him again even though she forgave him....but....if she constantly harped on him about it, then her untrust would actually manifest itself as unforgiveness. He said we have a hard time a humans being objective when it comes to earning trust and lots of times base all of our judements and opinions of a person on the one past sin. If all we can see in that person is their past sin, then it isnt just a trust problem we have, it is unforgiveness.

I am glad we had this conversation these past few days, and I have really learned from it. I appreciate all of the different opinions and input from everyone, and I pray that this will help me to make better judgements when dealing with others, and also help me to be more compassionate when compassion is needed.

AJ

 

[Salamander]

We were discussing people that have criminal records serving in the church on another thread, and I wondered about this question.

I know of several pastors that will admit that the only difference between them and some people serving prison time is that they didnt get caught.

So I was wondering how many of you have commited a crime that you could have went to jail for but didnt get caught?

And does that make people that did get caught any worse, or just caught?

If a pastor has ever commited a crime, even if he didnt get caught, should he be disqualified from church office?

I myself, have been caught and served time, and I got away with alot also.

By our standards, almost all of our Old Testament heros and authors are felons but yet we look to their writings, and lives as examples, and God used them in mighty ways. But would we really accept David or Moses in our congregation today as an equal? Or a Pastor?

AJ

Hi, AJ, good to see you so active!

I have to say, "NO!" I've been caught for everything I've ever done wrong, it's just that Jesus paid for my wrongs! I owe Him everything!

I'm just sorry he had to pay for what I did, but sure glad it satified His Father!:godisgood:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I've never been caught. :tongue3:

But I've broken the law and sinned. However, I'm not a pastor so I don't fall under the same standards. I think we should throw out Paul, and definately Moses and also David. I wouldn't let my daughters hang out with these guys. In fact I might look at them down the barrel of a shotgun.

 

[John Toppass]

I've never been caught. :tongue3:

But I've broken the law and sinned. However, I'm not a pastor so I don't fall under the same standards. I think we should throw out Paul, and definately Moses and also David. I wouldn't let my daughters hang out with these guys. In fact I might look at them down the barrel of a shotgun.

I you were looking down the barrel of a shotgun at David and Moses then it would not be the David and Moses we are talking about.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I you were looking down the barrel of a shotgun at David and Moses then it would not be the David and Moses we are talking about.

You forgot Paul. I'd look down the proverbial barrel at him too.

 

[Alive in Christ]

To answer the original question...


A friend and I broke into a store back in the 70's and stole something. We were high on something, but cant remember what we took. Basically, we commited burglary

The next day we realized the import of what we did, and quickly pawned the item to get it rid of it. Of course, that could have been our undoing, since the police might have alerted all the pawn shops, but we must have pawned it before they did, because we were never caught.

Praise God that the man who did that, and many other things, no longer exists.

He died, and the new me now lives.


:godisgood:

 

[blackbird]

Nothing to do with what I did or nothing but

I once heard the late, great Dr. Adrian Rogers preaching on something similiar-------I believe it was a series on the 10 commands and he was on Thou Shalt Not Steal

Here's what he said----though probably not word for word

If you so much as steal a 15 cent pencil from your company-----you have the same potential to steal your company's $150,000.00 payroll-----doesn't mean you're gonna do it----but the potential is there!!!

 

[ajg1959]

Nothing to do with what I did or nothing but

I once heard the late, great Dr. Adrian Rogers preaching on something similiar-------I believe it was a series on the 10 commands and he was on Thou Shalt Not Steal

Here's what he said----though probably not word for word

If you so much as steal a 15 cent pencil from your company-----you have the same potential to steal your company's $150,000.00 payroll-----doesn't mean you're gonna do it----but the potential is there!!!

This was the point of my OP blackbird. We seem to equate the level of sin with several things.

1. It depends on how whether it is against the law of the land or not.

2. It depends on how much jail time it carries.

3. It depends on whether the sinner got caught or not.

4. It depends on how much jail time he actually did,

But, the truth is that stealing the 15 cent pencil is sin just the same as stealing the $150,000,000 payroll, and the truth is that most of us (not all, but most) have done something in our lifetime worthy of criminal prosecution, but were lucky enough to not get caught. Yet, we comdemn the ones that did get caught, and we hold it against them long after they have repented and God forgave them.

I have learned the hard way, when I come across someone who has a very rough past to thank God for His Mercy and Grace, because without them I could be in a worse condition.

AJ

 

[blackbird]

This was the point of my OP blackbird. We seem to equate the level of sin with several things.

1. It depends on how whether it is against the law of the land or not.

2. It depends on how much jail time it carries.

3. It depends on whether the sinner got caught or not.

4. It depends on how much jail time he actually did,

But, the truth is that stealing the 15 cent pencil is sin just the same as stealing the $150,000,000 payroll, and the truth is that most of us (not all, but most) have done something in our lifetime worthy of criminal prosecution, but were lucky enough to not get caught. Yet, we comdemn the ones that did get caught, and we hold it against them long after they have repented and God forgave them.

I have learned the hard way, when I come across someone who has a very rough past to thank God for His Mercy and Grace, because without them I could be in a worse condition.

AJ

I used to preach at a Mississippi Correctional Institute(The Big Pen) and talked with numerous guys doing time-----one who was a regular at our preaching meetings was a white dude in his mid 20's------I could tell the dude didn't want to be there----but he got hung up in the boss's payroll and got sticky hands---well---you know the rest of the story . . .

Several years pasted since I met this guy---then one day--at church while I was walking through the parking lot---an older model pickup truck pulled in and came up along side me

It what that white dude in the "Big Pen"-------he had done his time and was out and was working as a house painter for some independant painter

He saw me outside and recognized me and pulled in to tell me---"I sure appreciated your willingness to come to the jail and preach to us and be with us---just to show some friendliness-----you gave us encouragement and I will always remember that!!!"

That just made my day---to know there was someone in the "Big Pen" who wanted out of the "system" that landed him there in the first place!!!

There's not a crime I can commit that is WORTH me spending time in "The Big Pen"

 

[Crabtownboy]

Johnny Cash, at a concert he gave at Folsom Prison said to the inmates, "The only difference between you and the rest of us is you got caught."