He descended into Hell

Marcia,

Rev 13:8 states that “Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world”. This was in the sovereign plan of God from eternity past, yet it did not happen until Jesus voluntarily laid down His life. Satan was likewise “bruised in the head” at Calvary, yet he is not done yet. The certain potential result is sometimes stated as an accomplished fact in Scripture because the outcome is sure. The fact that it is stated in such a manner does not mean that it has happened yet or that all the results of the action are fully in place. Even as I write this sitting at my desk, Scripture declares that we have been made to “sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus” (Eph 2:6). It is sure and certain by the sovereignty of God, so it is stated as an accomplished fact. Yet in fact, it has not happened yet.

There is never any indication that OT saints are generally ushered into God’s presence upon death. There is the account of the rich man and Lazarus who are near enough to see each other and for the rich man to communicate with Abraham. This does not sound like any description of heaven I have ever read in the Word. Further, there is the fact that the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sin. It is reasonable to INTERPOLATE that OT saints did not go to Heaven till after the cross. While this view is not universal, it is quite common among those who hold to a literal grammatical hermeneutic.

Do you know of any Scripture to support the other position, other than Rev 13:8, which I have already addressed? Might note that the other position is also an interpolation, but one with less basis IMHO.

 

I think you make some good points here, RJ.

Yes, but they were forgiven. We know there were OT saints so we know they received grace and were forgiven despite this -- they were forgiven because of their faith in God and by His grace (see Heb 11).

 

I don't know of any scripture to support the other position - I would have to think about it. I was hoping someone else would maybe do that.

I guess one of my thoughts on this is that since scripture is not clear on this, we should not assume OT saints did not enter heaven until after Christ died.

 

I Peter 3:[18] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
[19] By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1Pet.4
[6] For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

 

Thanks, LE, for posting that. But 1 Pet 3.18-19 is a very controversial passage and there are about 4 different views on what it is saying.

I know that one of those views is that Jesus went to proclaim his victory to the saints waiting in Sheol, but another view is that he proclaimed victory to those who were lost so they could see God's redemption plan had come to fruition.

Here are the different views from
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1102739457-6995.html

 

LadyEagle,

WOW, cannot remember have noticed the “preached also to them that are dead”!!! Caught me by surprise!

Based on the use of “quick and dead” in the previous verse (1Pet 4:5) I think it is best to understand the meaning as “God will judge those who are still alive and those who have died (v.5). For this reason the gospel was preached to those who are now dead...” Cannot really see OT saints very clearly in this passage.

Definitely cannot find OT saints in 1Pet 3:18. Peter identifies these spirits as those “who were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing”. Does not fit with the idea of OT saints at all.

 

Here's the rest of it from the same link:

 

Marcia,

BTW, I hold to b and c, but reject e. Have never heard c before.

Wow, two new things for me on one day. That does not happen a lot.

 

I totally reject (e) as well.

My pastor holds to (d), the view that it is talking about Jesus speaking through Noah when Noah was proclaiming God's judgment coming before the Flood, and that this shows the parallel of Noah saved from God's judgment with being saved from God's judgment through Christ. I tend to agree, but am not rigid on it.

 

If the OT Saints were not yet in heaven until Jesus was crucified, how did Moses and Elijah meet with Jesus on the mountain in Luke 9? And how did Peter recognize that that was who the two men were? Did they have pictures of what the OT Saints looked like in those times? I am just curious because there are only artist's imaginations as to what Christ looks like. Thanks!

 

How did Saul get Samuel by consulting the witch at Endor? The only explanation I can suggest is that God took them out of "Abraham's Bosom" or "Paradise" for the mountain top encounter.

I think their identity was supernaturally revealed or else Jesus told the inner circle who it was that appeared.

Pictures or portraits? I don't think so. No Biblical evidence of that.

 

Good questions. I never thought about your 2nd question here as to how Peter recognized Moses and Elijah.

God allowed Moses and Elijah to appear with Jesus, but we don't know where Moses and Elijah came from.

I think that Peter recognized them because God supernaturallly gave him that understanding in some way.

 

I would guess that God could easily have had them appear from Abraham's bosom. But that raises another question:

Where was the OT location of Enoch and Elijah? And since Moses died, would he and Elijah have been in the same place?

 

IL:
Moses did die, but I always wondered whether the reference made about Moses in Jude 9 had taken place prior to his appearance with Jesus on the Mount.

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Looks like Michael was in possession of Moses's body and that's how he was able to appear with Elijah - who did not die.

thots?

 

Good question. I don't know. I would guess, whatever it was, Satan must have wanted the body pretty bad and would no doubt have used it against God and His people. I've read where some think Satan wanted to use the body to get the Hebrews to worship it.

Wherever the body of Moses was, wherever the soul/spirit of Moses was, it would be no problem for God to have him appear on the Mount of Transfiguration, I feel sure. But I don't know that Moses body was even required for him to appear in recognizable form on the mount.