He died for the seed of abraham

[savedbymercy]

Do you really think jerking texts out of their context and then just reasserting them proves your point? This is supposed to be a dialog where objections are considered and given a reasonable response not a course in how to parrot and repeat one's self.

The physical descendants of Abraham, Israel are not the children of God Rom 9:8

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The physcal descendants of Abraham, God did not make one promise to them, thats pauls whole point in Rom 9

 

[Dr. Walter]

The physical descendants of Abraham, Israel are not the children of God Rom 9:8

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The physcal descendants of Abraham, God did not make one promise to them, thats pauls whole point in Rom 9

I have painstakingly laid out the contextual development of Romans 9:1-9 and you never respond to the evidence but do exactly as you do above - repeat one verse jerked out of context and repeat your assertion. That is no dialog.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I have painstakingly laid out the contextual development of Romans 9:1-9 and you never respond to the evidence but do exactly as you do above - repeat one verse jerked out of context and repeat your assertion. That is no dialog.

Romans 9:1-8 teaches the VERY OPPOSITE of what you are attempting to assert it teaches. You take a HALF truth and pervert the whole context.

Paul is teaching that God gave the promises to Israel as a ETHNIC NATION (vv. 4-5) and there is no way you can pervert verses 4-5 into making it a nation made up of all the elect - Impossible! That is just plain eisgesis at its worst.

Rom. 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.


Paul is teaching in verse 6a that the PRESENT REJECTION BY ETHNIC ISRAEL does not invalidate God's promises in verses 4-5 to ETHNIC ISRAEL as a nation.

Rom. 9:6 ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect.

Paul is teaching in verses 6b-8 that such promises to ETHNIC ISRAEL as a NATION incoporate MORE than mere physical relationship to Abraham and that is precisely why ETHNIC ISRAEL considered ONLY by physical relationship cannot be heirs of this promise but the ETHNIC NATION OF ISRAEL that is the subject of these promises are TWICE BORN ETHNIC NATIONAL ISRAEL:

Rom. 9:6b For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


Paul is teaching in verses 9-11 using ETHNIC JEWS Paul demonstrates that the promises to Israel as an ETHNIC NATION finds fulfillment in a NATION OF ETHNIC TWICE BORN ELECT JEWS


THIS TEXT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SAVED GENTILES AT ALL OR SAVED FROM OTHER NATIONS BUT RATHER THE TRUE IDENTITY OF ETHNIC NATIONAL ISRAEL UNTO WHOM PERTAINETH THESE PROMISES GIVEN ABRAHAM.

 

[savedbymercy]

I have painstakingly laid out the contextual development of Romans 9:1-9 and you never respond to the evidence but do exactly as you do above - repeat one verse jerked out of context and repeat your assertion. That is no dialog.

I know what paul is teaching in Romans 9, but you do not. Paul taught that Israel the Physical Nation is not the Children of God ! Rom 9:8


8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I know what paul is teaching in Romans 9, but you do not. Paul taught that Israel the Physical Nation is not the Children of God ! Rom 9:8


8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Who states they are? Not I? The context is simply distinguishing between "spiritual" ETHNIC Israel as a nation and "physical" ETHNIC Israel as a nation. The text or context has nothing to do with GENTILE believers at all.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Who states they are? Not I? The context is simply distinguishing between "spiritual" ETHNIC Israel as a nation and "physical" ETHNIC Israel as a nation. The text or context has nothing to do with GENTILE believers at all.

The "seed" of Abraham in regard to the everlasting covenant are all the promised children - spriitual seed.

However, among the promised "seed" there are two major classifications

1. The "NATION" singular of Israel

2. The "NATIONS" of the world including the Jewish remnant.

Romans 9 has to do with who are of the "NATION" of Israel that pertaineth the promises in verse 3-5. That "NATION" contains only TWICE BORN JEWS and NO GENTILES.

Hence, only ONCE BORN Jews who die as once born Jews are no more the children of God than ONCE BORN Gentiles who die as once born gentiles.

However, Romans 9 is who is who within the sphere of strictly ETHNIC JEWISH grounds.

Paul must establish this point before he can establish the point that it is the gospel that is the power of God to salvation for all the promised children and particular to the promised ethnic Jewish NATION in Romans 10 and finally that God has not forsaken his promise to Abraham concerning the ETHNIC JEWISH singular nation that He will save in one day at the coming of Christ in Romans 11.

Absolute proof that I am correctly interpeting Romans 9-11 correctly is the fact that you have not even attempted to overthrow the contextual evidence in Romans 11 that it is ETHNIC ISRAEL that is cut off BUT is to be grafted back in "again" and all the other contextual factors that prove ETHNIC ISRAEL is the subject of verses 25-28. You have not been able to respond to a single solitary contextual based fact presented. YOU SIMPLY IGNORE THEM ALL and play the PARROT routine.

 

[savedbymercy]

Who states they are? Not I? The context is simply distinguishing between "spiritual" ETHNIC Israel as a nation and "physical" ETHNIC Israel as a nation. The text or context has nothing to do with GENTILE believers at all.

Ethnic Israel, they are not the children of God Rom 9:8


8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Ethnic Israel, they are not the children of God Rom 9:8


8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Yes, ONCE BORN ethnic Israel are not the children of the promise but ETHNIC ISRAEL is the subject of the promise as Paul explicitly states they are:

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Come on SBG confess up that the "Israelites" in verse 4 are "my kinsmen ACCORDING TO THE FLESH" and "to whom pertaineth.....THE PROMISES"

Verses 6-8 simply denies these "Israelites...according to the flesh" are ONCE BORN Israelites but rather are TWICE BORN Israelites. The "Israelites" of verses 4-5 are the same Israelites of verses 9-11 and these were TWICE BORN ETHNIC ISRAELITES "according to the purpose of election."

You simply cannot accept the context but must PERVERT the context in which verse 8 is found in order to defend your heretical eisgetical doctrine

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

Yes, ONCE BORN ethnic Israel are not the children of the promise but ETHNIC ISRAEL is the subject of the promise as Paul explicitly states they are:

No ethnic jew has a title to any promise of God's unless they are of the election of Grace in Christ, all other jews are not the children of God. Rom 9:8

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



No ethnic jew has a title to any promise of God's unless they are of the election of Grace in Christ, all other jews are not the children of God. Rom 9:8

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

You ignore the evidence of the scriptural context of Romans 9:8 I repeatedly place before you. You simply parrot back your false assertion contrary to the text, context and common sense. you are a false teacher whose conscience is seared by error (1 Tim. 4:2) as you cannot deal with the scriptures in any kind of contextual or expository fashion and don't even try.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

You ignore the evidence of the scriptural context of Romans 9:8

No I have not, Paul's purpose in Romans 9 is to show that National Israel in the flesh did not have any promises made to them in the First Place, it was Spiritual Israel, Israel of Faith. Any Promises made by God are coupled with Him giving them Faith to receive and believe the Promise made by Grace. Rom 4:16

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,


National Israel did not have one promise made to her, she was just Abraham's descendants by the flesh, like Ishmael. Rom 9:8

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8That is, They[Israel] which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



No I have not, Paul's purpose in Romans 9 is to show that National Israel in the flesh did not have any promises made to them in the First Place, it was Spiritual Israel, Israel of Faith.
.

You very conveniently ignore Romans 9:3-5 which says the very opposite of what you say above. Romans 9:3-5 explicitly states that it is ETHNIC Israel that the promises pertain to! I have repeated that text over and over and over again to you highlighted the very words that you conveniently choose to not merely to ignore but openly contradict! Paul says it is and you say it is not! I will take Paul over you.

Romans 9:6-8 simply denies it is merely NATURAL BORN ethnic Jews that the promises pertain to but only applies to SECOND BORN ethnic Israel.

I dare you to take Romans 9:3-5 and claim that Paul says in those verses that such promises did not pertain to ETHNIC Israel - I dare you to defend it.

 

[savedbymercy]

The story of Hagar and Ishmael is given to good cause, for that proves that not all Abraham's natural descendants were children of promise..

Rom 9:6-8

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The children of the flesh are not the children of God, of which Ishmael represented because he was born by the flesh from Abraham and Hagar and not the child of promise as Isaac was, promised from God to Abe and Sarah.

Here is the promise Gen 17:19

And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

The blessings of the everlasting covenant run through the children of promise, not the children of the flesh which Ishmael represents..

 

[Dr. Walter]

The story of Hagar and Ishmael is given to good cause, for that proves that not all Abraham's natural descendants were children of promise..

Talking to you is like talking to a wall, no eyes, no ears. Reading your responses is like listening to a parrot with no brain just repeats errors and ignores Biblical context and contrary evidences placed squarely before you.

Paul had already addressed the salvation of the members at the church at Rome in Romans 1-8. He now turns his attention to ethnic national Israel in Romans 9-11 and God's purpose in their salvation.

Your intepretation makes no distinction between Romans chapters 1-8 and Romans chapters 9-11 as you define the members - a mixture of Jews and gentiles at Rome to be the Israel of Romans 9-11. In other words, you simply ignore the change of subject expressly stated in Romans 9:1-5 and repeated throughout by contrasting Jews throughout Romans chapters 9-11.

The hardest thing to defend is when a person denies the obvious and that is exactly what you are doing - you are denying the obvious.

In my last post I challenged you to prove that Romans 9:1-5 does not refer explicitly to ethnic Israel and you simply ignored it just as you do all contrary contextual evidence against your false theories. You simply jerk Romans 9:6-8 out of its context and twist it to suit your fancy.

Hence, it is absurd to even continue this discussion with you. It is as absurd to continue it because there is no discussion at all. You simply choose to ignore any contrary evidence placed before you and be willfully ignorant and blind and that is your right.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Note that Paul did not say:

"Who are SPIRITUAL ISRAEL A MIXTURE OF BORN AGAIN GENTILES WITH JEWS; to whom pertaineth the adoption...."

However, that is the precise twist you place on this text and that is precisely what you make it mean by your interpretation of Romans 9:6-8.

The fact of the matter is that Jews are contrasted and distinguished from Gentiles throughout Romans 9-11 rather than united under the term "Israel" or "jew" or "jacob":




Rom 9:6-8

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The children of the flesh are not the children of God, of which Ishmael represented because he was born by the flesh from Abraham and Hagar and not the child of promise as Isaac was, promised from God to Abe and Sarah.

Here is the promise Gen 17:19

And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

The blessings of the everlasting covenant run through the children of promise, not the children of the flesh which Ishmael represents..[/QUOTE]

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

Talking to you is like talking to a wall,

You see, Ishmael and His Mother represented Abraham's Israel after the flesh, those constituted a Nation at Siani.. Gal 4:

24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Thats when ethnic Israel was constituted a Nation, well that Israel are not the Children of God Rom 9:8


8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

That Israel is not heirs ! Notice Gal 4:30

Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

The casting out here is what happened to National Israel as that which was broken off ! Because they are not Heirs..

Your hope and teaching is False...

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



You see, Ishmael and His Mother represented Abraham's Israel after the flesh, those constituted a Nation at Siani.. Gal 4:

24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Thats when ethnic Israel was constituted a Nation, well that Israel are not the Children of God Rom 9:8


8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

That Israel is not heirs ! Notice Gal 4:30

Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

The casting out here is what happened to National Israel as that which was broken off ! Because they are not Heirs..

Your hope and teaching is False...

Of course you are correct for the PRESENT dispensation which is unto the Gentiles! Of course Israel as a ETHNIC NATION are presently children of the flesh and the children of the flesh are not heirs of the promise.

However, where you err is the future! Romans 11:1 and Romans 11:11 demand that present fallen ethnic unregenerated Israel as a nation is stumbling but God "SHALL" not allow it to fall or be cast away in the FUTURE but the present STUMBLING continues only "UNTIL THE FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES BE COME IN" and then "all Israel SHALL be saved."

You pit PRESENT tense scriptures against FUTURE tense scriptures when both are EQUALLY true.

AGAIN, YOU AVOID THE BULK OF BIBLICAL EVIDENCE THAT CONTRADICTS YOUR PROOF TEXTING OUT OF CONTEXT position.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

Of course you are correct for the PRESENT dispensation which is unto the Gentiles!

I am correct period, Ishamel will never be a Child of Promise, a Isaac

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



I am correct period, Ishamel will never be a Child of Promise, a Isaac

The INDIVIDUAL person Ishmael will not be a child of Promise, but the FUTURE generation of ETHNIC ISRAEL that will be saved are not like Ishmael but like Isaac! Sorry to pop you imagined bubble!

 

[1 Timothy 3:3-9]

Talking to you is like talking to a wall, no eyes, no ears. Reading your responses is like listening to a parrot with no brain just repeats errors and ignores Biblical context and contrary evidences placed squarely before you.

Please be an example and charitable when responding to others on this forum and in real life. If you can talk this way to others on the internet I can only guess how you speak to those of your own family and congregation. "That don't agree with you or do what you want."

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

The INDIVIDUAL person Ishmael will not be a child of Promise,

Correct, and He and His Mom typified the Physical Nation of Israel Gal 4:
22-25

22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.