He thought of his glory?

[SheepWhisperer]

The Bible says:
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:2

But this man says Jesus "thought of his glory above all on the cross". Does someone have a chapter and verse which tells us this?

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I can't remember or find anything. Cross references to the scripture you quote gives nothing. Psalm 22 (the song of the Cross) reveals nothing of that sentiment.

Jesus was motivated by what he would receive, the scripture you quote makes that clear. However, psalm 22 shows Jesus was very mindful of his Father and his fame in suffering. It doesn't even talk of the suffering servant's fame.

 

[canadyjd]

Jesus often spoke of His life bringing glory to His Father. John 17, as an example. Jesus clearly says His sacrifice will bring glory to God.

Peace to you

 

[SheepWhisperer]

Jesus often spoke of His life bringing glory to His Father. John 17, as an example. Jesus clearly says His sacrifice will bring glory to God.

Peace to you

Yes. and that whole chapter, beginning with the second verse, is about glorifying God for the benefit of salvation. Do you have a verse which says that Jesus was thinking about "his glory" on the cross? Or a verse or verses saying that his "glory" was his "chief aim" or anything like that?

 

[tyndale1946]

He didn't think of his glory, his main thought was carrying out the will of his Father... Brother Glen

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Also, I just realized that is John Piper. The man is Charismatic Reformed, I don't know what you think of those stances, especially combined, but I take it as evidence to weigh carefully what that man says.

 

[canadyjd]

Yes. and that whole chapter, beginning with the second verse, is about glorifying God for the benefit of salvation. Do you have a verse which says that Jesus was thinking about "his glory" on the cross? Or a verse or verses saying that his "glory" was his "chief aim" or anything like that?

In John 17, Jesus is talking about bringing glory to His Father by His sacrifice on the cross. There are many other examples. If He is saying that prior to going to the cross, I don't think it's a stretch to believe He was thinking that what was happening on the cross was bringing glory to God the Father. Jesus said on the cross, "it is finished". What was finished?

Jesus says on many occasions that He was always doing the will of His Father. If the will of His Father was for Him to bring glory to Himself by making a propitiation for sins by His sacrifice on the cross (which is what Jesus says in John 17) then of course that is the chief aim.

When He said, "it is finished" then His determination to bring glory to His Father by His sacrifice on the cross that would make a way for His children to stand in His presence was finished.

Jesus brought glory to God the Father and we benefit from that effort.

Thank you Lord Jesus! Let all who boast, boast in the Lord.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Also, I just realized that is John Piper. The man is Charismatic Reformed, I don't know what you think of those stances, especially combined, but I take it as evidence to weigh carefully what that man says.

I weigh carefully what everyone says, comparing it to scripture.

I've never heard John Piper discribed as charismatic before. He is reformed and has a exceptional understanding of scripture, imho.

Peace to you

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I weigh carefully what everyone says, comparing it to scripture.

I've never heard John Piper discribed as charismatic before. He is reformed and has a exceptional understanding of scripture, imho.

Peace to you

I agree, discernment in all things, I need to be a little more careful myself.

Piper is an advocate for tongues and prophecy in the church. He also criticizes John MacArther for his cessationism. That's why I called him Charismatic.

 

[canadyjd]

I agree, discernment in all things, I need to be a little more careful myself.

Piper is an advocate for tongues and prophecy in the church. He also criticizes John MacArther for his cessationism. That's why I called him Charismatic.

Do you have a source for the statement that Piper advocates for "tongues and prophecy" in church? I haven't heard that before, but I haven't been keeping up either Piper or MacArther for several years. I had found them both to have clear insight into scripture.

 

[canadyjd]

I looked on Piper's Desiring God website and found a 7 minute video where he specifically adresses the issue of tongues.

I thought he did a great job of explaining 1 Cor 12 and Paul's view of tongues. Paul allows for the possibility that the "ecstatic utterances" are authentic but clearly down plays their importance for the church and gives clear instructions for use including remaining silent if no one can interpret.

Piper also states that what is happening in charismatic circles does not follow those rules. He acknowelges "seasons" in his ministry when the issue has come up. He preaches on the subject and follows Paul's example. He urges those in his ministry who experience tongues to follow the rules of scripture, while down playing their importance.

Piper did say that he had prayed that God would give him that gift but that God has always said no. I have to admit that I cringed a little when I heard that. However, upon reflecting on every thing he said, I don't think he was asking for tongues as the charismatic experience in public, but as a private spiritual language that would bring him closer to God. The main emphasis on "private".

I think Piper is correct about Paul's teaching in 1 cor 12. I personally believe that 1 Cor 9-12 are a polemic against the use of tongues in church, although Paul allows for the possibility they are authentic.

I'm not ready to call Piper a charismatic however. Certainly not in the way Pentecostals are charismatic. I do believe he is attempting to reconcile what is taught in 1 Cor 12 with the experiences in his ministry.

Thanks for the tip.

Peace to you.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

Mark 12:28-34 King James Version (KJV)
28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Wait a minute; shouldn't "giving glory to God" be greater than "loving your neighbor as yourself"? The reason it is not, Is because the very nature of God is love. However, by "loving your neighbor as yourself" you DO glorify God. BUT the glorification is for the benefit of others. That's who God is, He loves others, Otherwise, He wouldn't command us to "love our enemies" so that we can "be the children of our Father". No, Jesus went to the cross for the "joy set before him" and what is that joy? it is in fellowshipping with us via "righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost".(Romans 14:17)

Saying that Jesus was "thinking of His own glory" on the cross makes him out to be selfish and it is contrary to the Word of God. God does and WILL be glorified, but the Bible does not say it is His greatest desire. Why does this concern me? Because Mr. Piper even believes that God "predetermined" people to burn in Hell for "God's glory". This is a total misrepresentation of God's true glory. God will be most glorified because of His unfathomable love as was manifested on the Cross.. Those who go to Hell and the Lake of Fire do so because they rejected such love.

 

[canadyjd]

I see you do not address John 17 in which Jesus specifically says that He is glorifying Himself and God the Father by His sacrifice on the cross.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

I see you do not address John 17 in which Jesus specifically says that He is glorifying Himself and God the Father by His sacrifice on the cross.

Sir, Jesus Christ "glorified" LOVE on the cross. He "declared" and manifested: the true nature of God Almighty by being whipped, scourged and made into a bloody mess for your sins and mine. He also manifested the true nature of God and this glorified Him by doing things for others while He walked this earth. He demonstrated, for us, how to "let your light shine" so that WE could glorify God by love as well. Do you understand that?

 

[Yeshua1]

I can't remember or find anything. Cross references to the scripture you quote gives nothing. Psalm 22 (the song of the Cross) reveals nothing of that sentiment.

Jesus was motivated by what he would receive, the scripture you quote makes that clear. However, psalm 22 shows Jesus was very mindful of his Father and his fame in suffering. It doesn't even talk of the suffering servant's fame.

Jesus would have been thinking of the glory of His Father, how their plan of salvation now came to pass!

 

[canadyjd]

Sir, Jesus Christ "glorified" LOVE on the cross. He "declared" and manifested: the true nature of God Almighty by being whipped, scourged and made into a bloody mess for your sins and mine. He also manifested the true nature of God and this glorified Him by doing things for others while He walked this earth. He demonstrated, for us, how to "let your light shine" so that WE could glorify God by love as well. Do you understand that?

I certainly agree that Jesus demonstrated the love of God by taking on flesh and living a life of humility and sacrifice. He certainly glorified God by His compassion and love demonstrated for others. He obviously desires that we follow His example and love God and one another and glorify God with our lives. I haven't stated otherwise.

That doesn't change the fact that in John 17, and other places, Jesus says He is glorifying Himself and His Father by His death on the cross.

It seems you won't accept that Jesus sought to glorify Himself and God the Father with His sacrifice on the cross, despite what scripture says. Is that the issue? What exactly is wrong with God glorifying Himself?

 

[canadyjd]

I see that you have stated that if Jesus was thinking of His own glory it would make Him "selfish."

Imho, that is judging God according to human standards and is contrary to scripture.

Jesus clearly says in John 17 that He is glorifying God the Father and Himself by going to the cross.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

Psalm 8
3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

God thinks of man too.
Again, the Bible says that Jesus endured the cross for the "joy" set before him. You haven't shown me scripture which says that Jesus thought of his "glory" "above all" on the cross".

 

[SheepWhisperer]

Mr. Piper teaches that "glory" is God's chief aim. He also teaches that God predetermined some folks, actually a lot of folks, for the express purpose of burning them in Hell for that "chief aim".....something referred to as "double predestination". That is a misrepresentation of God's true glory. God is NOT selfish, but your false misrepresentation of Him is.

 

[canadyjd]

Psalm 8
3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

God thinks of man too.
Again, the Bible says that Jesus endured the cross for the "joy" set before him. You haven't shown me scripture which says that Jesus thought of his "glory" "above all" on the cross".

I have agreed with you that God thinks of mankind.

Concerning whether or not Jesus considered glorifying Himself and His Father to be His chief aim.....

If you consider the prayer that Jesus prayed in John 17, you must see the context. This is immediately prior to His arrest and crucifixion. He says that His time had come, obviously referring to His crucifixion and death. He explains the significance of His crucifixion and death by saying He will be glorifying Himself and His Father.

It is clear that glorifying Himself and His Father was the first thing he mentioned when explaining the significance of His crucifixion and death.

I don't see a problem with saying glorifying Himself and His Father to be His chief aim, since Jesus placed so much emphasis on it Himself.

However, perhaps you might agree that glorifying Himself was at least part of His intention... Maybe 4th or 5th or 15th or 20th. Can you agree that Jesus did in fact intend to glorify Himself and His Father by His sacrifice?