easternstar
Member
Jesus said His followers would do greater things than He did. Why don't we see healings and miracles inside and outside our churches like the first century Christians did? Shouldn't we be seeing this occur?
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Healing and miracles
- Thread starter easternstar
- Start date
Ascetic X
Member
I think the lack of healings and miracles today is due, not to them passing away when the original apostles died, but due to the lack of faith in current church leadership. It makes no sense to say the “sign gifts” were given just to establish the first century church. There is absolutely no biblical justification for such an absurd idea either.
And if “sign gifts” are for establishing the church, then we certainly need them desperately today, since church attendance and membership is declining rapidly, especially as many denominations have gone woke and broke.
Church leadership has transferred faith in Jesus the healer to modern medicine and big Pharma.
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Jesus was not speaking qualitatively - not more miraculously. He was speaking quantitatively - more leading people to Christ.
For example, on the day of Pentecost, yes, they spoke different languages to Jews from around the known world so they would understand in their own language. But what was the end goal?
3,000 people were saved. That's the greater work.
Ascetic X
Member
Leading people to Christ is just a single type of work. But Jesus said the works (plural) that I do shall they do also. Jesus drew individuals to His Father, taught, healed, raised the dead, calmed the storm, fed thousands, cast out demons, etc.
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
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easternstar
Member
I think you have a point about the leadership. But I don't think the lack of healings and miracles can be laid entirely on the leadership.
easternstar
Member
True. But that still doesn't answer the question of why there is such a lack of healing and miracles in today's church and among Christians. Of course Charismatiics would say there are such healings and miracles in their circles. I've been in those circles, and I didn't see it there either.
Are the two of you saying that Jesus was saying that the early church and the modern church would be more sensational than he? That he was speaking qualitatively? That we would draw more to Christ with our being supernatural sideshow?
And are the two of you saying that you don't see this and it's a problem? What would you have to see for the church to be more of a sensation than Jesus Christ?
I can't go for that. Yes, there are miracles today. Especially in Islamic countries where they have never even HEARD of Jesus. Yes, people are healed. Yes, families are restored.
In America, I don't need to see a miracle to follow Christ. I have the Bible and solid preaching. I don't want to be "bigger" than Jesus. I don't want to sit under a pastor who is "bigger" than Jesus. Do the two of you believe that those who are "bigger" than Jesus are the only ones truly following Christ?
Jesus wasn't talking about being a sensation. He was talking about scope and magnitude. In three years, he, in his human form, covered a certain amount of locations and confronted a certain amount of people. The church in that last 2000 years has covered more scope, more locations, seen more miracles and salvations.
And are the two of you saying that you don't see this and it's a problem? What would you have to see for the church to be more of a sensation than Jesus Christ?
I can't go for that. Yes, there are miracles today. Especially in Islamic countries where they have never even HEARD of Jesus. Yes, people are healed. Yes, families are restored.
In America, I don't need to see a miracle to follow Christ. I have the Bible and solid preaching. I don't want to be "bigger" than Jesus. I don't want to sit under a pastor who is "bigger" than Jesus. Do the two of you believe that those who are "bigger" than Jesus are the only ones truly following Christ?
Jesus wasn't talking about being a sensation. He was talking about scope and magnitude. In three years, he, in his human form, covered a certain amount of locations and confronted a certain amount of people. The church in that last 2000 years has covered more scope, more locations, seen more miracles and salvations.
Ascetic X
Member
Jesus knew that some will say “Lord, lord, did we not cast out spirits and do many mighty wonders in your name?” but not be truly following and obeying Him.
But Jesus did say we could do the same works He did and greater. Greater in number of people taught and saved? Certainly. Greater in number or scope of miracles? Why not? They are done in His name, for His glory. Neither type of greater makes anyone “bigger” or better than our Lord. But to deny the supernatural operations promised to us makes us less than what we should be.
Healing and other gift operations should not be sensational, or requirements for following Christ, but should be ways of fulfilling the promises of Christ in blessing those who suffer and meeting human needs.
Certain charismatic preachers may fake healings and create a sensationalized side show, but that does not negate John 14:12. There are heretical sermon preachers too, but that doesn’t mean sermonizing should be abandoned.
You would be very happy if, when you got cancer for example, you could go to your pastor, a church member, or the elders of the church who would lay hands on you, anoint you with oil, and believingly minister healing to you, rather than say, “I will pray for you, but not the prayer of faith as stated in James, because I don’t know if it is God’s will to heal you. Sign gifts passed away with the original apostles.”
Jesus never told a sick person, “I would like to heal you, but God is using this illness to teach you something. Sorry.”
Delivering suffering individuals is mercy, not side show. Jesus probably had to be careful about multitudes flocking to Him just to see miracles, yet so many times the gospels say that they brought sick and possessed people to Jesus, and He healed them all.
Why are we so resistant to this clear promise to be enabled to do the full range of His works? — John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
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I have not "denied any supernatural promise." I am not "resistant" to it.
My church DOES lay hands on people. All the time. Not everyone is healed. That's God's business.
I DID have cancer. I did not ask the church the lay hands on me. But I did ask them to pray and I was grateful for the prayers. The surgeon was able to get it all and I considered that a miracle via the prayers.
Miracles still happen. I've already said that. We will just have to agree to disagree on what Jesus meant.
Ascetic X
Member
@Scarlett O. — You made my day beautiful by telling me your cancer is gone! Praise God who works directly and also through means like doctors!
easternstar
Member
I can't say it better than Ascetic X did in his reply to you.
I appreciate hearing people share how the Holy Spirit speaks to them. My experience has not been a 'still small voice' but I am more moved to action that often results in confirmation that it was a 'God thing'. An example would be homeless people panhandling. Usually I don't give money to them as I have worked in the Recovery field for many years and do not want to enable people. However, there's occasions that I been moved to assist someone on the street and then found them coming to my office as a client and found out that the assistance I gave came at a critical time for them.
My prayer time in the morning consists of a time 'praying the Psalms' and silence. 'Be still and know I Am God'. My mind can race with thoughts otherwise and discerning what is of
the Holy Spirit would be difficult otherwise. If my thoughts involve ego I can be sure that is not the Holy Spirit. If I am truly surrendered to His will, my thoughts will be on my witness and serving Him.
John of Japan's testimony about 'God’s peace' before a life and death surgery is something I hope all Christians would hope for in such situation. I have experienced the miracle of having the obsession to drink lifted 22 years ago and it has never returned. That was an experience I only see in the lives of people struggling with addictions that have fully surrendered their lives to God with no reservations.
If you want to see walking miracles, attend an open meeting of a twelve step group and listen to the 'old timers' sharing 'their experience, strength and hope'. Miracles still happen often and God moves in places and people's lives that you would least expect it.
My prayer time in the morning consists of a time 'praying the Psalms' and silence. 'Be still and know I Am God'. My mind can race with thoughts otherwise and discerning what is of
the Holy Spirit would be difficult otherwise. If my thoughts involve ego I can be sure that is not the Holy Spirit. If I am truly surrendered to His will, my thoughts will be on my witness and serving Him.
John of Japan's testimony about 'God’s peace' before a life and death surgery is something I hope all Christians would hope for in such situation. I have experienced the miracle of having the obsession to drink lifted 22 years ago and it has never returned. That was an experience I only see in the lives of people struggling with addictions that have fully surrendered their lives to God with no reservations.
If you want to see walking miracles, attend an open meeting of a twelve step group and listen to the 'old timers' sharing 'their experience, strength and hope'. Miracles still happen often and God moves in places and people's lives that you would least expect it.
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First of all, let me classify the works. There are miracles, which are events taking place in a very limited time, events that are impossible on earth without God. I've seen God stop the rain in a moment of time in answer to a prayer just finished. Later the believer I did evangelism with decided to try that, and guess what, God stopped the rain when he prayed! I've seen healings, as have many Christians. (This is not a Charismatic thing, and I'm not a Charismatic.)
Then there is providence, wherein God works through natural means to do His will, and that is a process. God sent me to Japan through His providence when I didn't want to go. Not a miracle, but definitely a work of God.
I know people who have been healed miraculously. I know people God has rescued from "mental illness." I know people who were alcoholics or drug addicts, but God miraculously took that away in a moment of time. But most of all, I've seen people trust Christ as Savior, and that is the greatest miracle of all.
God can fix errant believers, too. I've seen a believer who had been in prison for wicked crime turn into a decent, loving church member who loves the Word of God and witnesses for Christ!
You know, anyone who has been a cross cultural missionary has seen miracles. I saw a yakuza gangster boss saved in Japan, who ran a drug pushing, filth peddling, thieving, scamming gang. One of his gang also got saved, and another yakuza who was a gambler trusted Christ as Savior. Those salvations hurt the drug trade severely in Asahikawa, Japan. Those were huge miracles. I don't know of any Israeli gangs Jesus shut down in the first century! He gave us that privilege. The last time I met my saved gang boss, he gave me a big hug and said, "Thank you Sensei (Teacher)!" That in itself was a miracle because it is totally foreign to Japanese culture to hug. In 33 years as a missionary to Japan, that's the only hug I ever got from a Japanese!
You who are only talking about miracles in your home country need to get out more! I dare you to start reading missionary biographies. You will learn about miracles then. Try A Thousand Miles of Miracle, by Missionary A. E. Glover, about how his family fled the Boxer Rebellion in 1900.
Then there is providence, wherein God works through natural means to do His will, and that is a process. God sent me to Japan through His providence when I didn't want to go. Not a miracle, but definitely a work of God.
I know people who have been healed miraculously. I know people God has rescued from "mental illness." I know people who were alcoholics or drug addicts, but God miraculously took that away in a moment of time. But most of all, I've seen people trust Christ as Savior, and that is the greatest miracle of all.
God can fix errant believers, too. I've seen a believer who had been in prison for wicked crime turn into a decent, loving church member who loves the Word of God and witnesses for Christ!
You know, anyone who has been a cross cultural missionary has seen miracles. I saw a yakuza gangster boss saved in Japan, who ran a drug pushing, filth peddling, thieving, scamming gang. One of his gang also got saved, and another yakuza who was a gambler trusted Christ as Savior. Those salvations hurt the drug trade severely in Asahikawa, Japan. Those were huge miracles. I don't know of any Israeli gangs Jesus shut down in the first century! He gave us that privilege. The last time I met my saved gang boss, he gave me a big hug and said, "Thank you Sensei (Teacher)!" That in itself was a miracle because it is totally foreign to Japanese culture to hug. In 33 years as a missionary to Japan, that's the only hug I ever got from a Japanese!
You who are only talking about miracles in your home country need to get out more! I dare you to start reading missionary biographies. You will learn about miracles then. Try A Thousand Miles of Miracle, by Missionary A. E. Glover, about how his family fled the Boxer Rebellion in 1900.
A Thousand Miles Of Miracle: Glover, A. E.: 9781857925111: Amazon.com: Books
A Thousand Miles Of Miracle [Glover, A. E.] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. A Thousand Miles Of Miracle
www.amazon.com
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The "greater works" is primarily that the Kingdom was going to bring salvation worldwide, and no longer be limited to Israel.
Sign gifts to the Apostles were distinct and not repeated by the Holy Spirit
Indeed, as jesus was stuck in his flesh body and could just walk around at that time, but now he has MANY of his "foot soldiers" to get the good news of Him out to entire world
Signs and wonders seem to be used today by the Holy Spirit to reach and impact Muslims , but that would be due to unquique circumstances, as in closed off until now nations and peoples, not the norm
Ask the Apostles what it cost them to obey and follow Jesus, as they were not experiencing the so called glamourous lifestyle promised in the modern Charasmatic Chaos movement
Many more times though have had funerals when the Christian died in christ, yet kept their testimony for the Lord Jesus even despite not getting healed, but was healed right after they died
And was not to be seen as granting approval to those who twist it to get their blab it and grab it theology