Healing for today's church

[Gup20]

The scribes accused Him of blasphemy because He said He had forgiven sins

It seems you would do the same thing - accuse God of blasphemy for healing someone.

I gave you the evidence. The context of heal is set by the words iniquity and transgressions. There is no promise of physical healing in that passage.

You have yet to demonstrate that sin (iniquity and transgressions) is purely spiritual. Your analysis of Isaiah 53:5 rests solely on the assumption that the words iniquity and transgressions are purely spiritual, but you haven't offered one ounce of evidence as to why these words (which is the same as saying "sin") are purely spiritual. And, in response, I have given you the words of Jesus himself equating the forgiveness of sin to physical healing, thereby demonstrating your underlying axiom to be incorrect.

None of those verses you quoted show anything of the sort. The purpose of the healing was to show His power not to add it to salvation.

Who said anything about adding to salvation? Who said healing has anything to do with salvation?

The Gospel - the good news - encapsulates both salvation and healing. However, salvation and healing are not necessarily requisite for one another.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
​

Matt 7 presents several dogma-challenging ideas. First, that the gifts of God can be used by those who are not saved - as long as they are done in Jesus name. (for example, the sorcerers who healed people in Jesus' name in Acts). Second, implicit in Matt 7:22-23 is the idea that Jesus' name is required for these works to be performed. Meaning again, it is part of what he came here to do. Bearing in mind once again, that he was able to do his healing and miracles as the "son of man" PRIOR to his death and resurrection (prior to his salvation-bringing work). I believe Peter tells us in Acts 3 it is because of Jesus' righteousness. Coupled with Paul in Romans 5, we see that righteousness and life can be passed by Jesus just as the Curse and death were passed by Adam.

What I said and what you said are only different in word order. Both have the same meaning.. It is semantics.

You only believe it is semantics because you believe I meant what YOU said i meant. Well I didn't mean what YOU said I meant... I meant what I said which is very different and does not imply at all what you said. In other words, you misunderstood what I said. Perhaps if you took an exigetical approach to reading my posts you would understand.

A rather absurd interpretation. These verses do not suggest Abraham was the first to come to faith after hearing the gospel.

Well considering it was to Abraham that God first made the covenant of faith, I don't see how someone else could have beaten him to it. Paul makes it clear in both Galatians 3 and Romans 4 that Abraham is the "father of those with faith". Jesus himself tells the Israelites in the Jewish temple that they are not the children of Abraham, otherwise they would believe in Him (John 8:39).

When you distort the gospel I will call you on it. And when you make poor attempts to add meaning to a passage that is not their in order to set up a false doctrine I will call you on it.

Then it is good that I have not distorted the gospel, but rather I have attempted to pull down strongholds in your life that have exhaulted themselves against the knowledge of Christ - namely your dogmatic traditions which have no life or power.

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
​

It sounds to me like you are the one who is steeped in eisigetical doctrines. Tell me, Revmitchell, does your church in any way resemble the one in the book of Acts? Does the Holy Spirit bear witness to your church's members with signs and wonders?

Jhn 5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
Jhn 5:36 But I have greater witness than [that] of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us;
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
​

Do the believers in your church walk in the power of God, with the Holy Spirit bearing witness to their salvation as it says in Mark 16, or are you a Matthew 23 church?

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness.
​

 

[Revmitchell]

It seems you would do the same thing - accuse God of blasphemy for healing someone.

This comment shows your lack of a basic understanding of the passage or what I said. They did not accuse him of blasphemy for healing, nor did I say such. They accused Him of blasphemy because He claimed to forgive sins. They understood this to be acting in the authority of God or being God.

You have yet to demonstrate that sin (iniquity and transgressions) is purely spiritual. Your analysis of Isaiah 53:5 rests solely on the assumption that the words iniquity and transgressions are purely spiritual, but you haven't offered one ounce of evidence as to why these words (which is the same as saying "sin") are purely spiritual. And, in response, I have given you the words of Jesus himself equating the forgiveness of sin to physical healing, thereby demonstrating your underlying axiom to be incorrect.

You have not given one ounce of scripture of anything of the sort. You simply posted scripture and added your meaning to it. Sin is a spiritual problem and is not related to healing of all things which is absurd. Just because Jesus healed and dealt with their sin does not add up to a promise of healing in Isaiah 53. Christ did not equate forgiveness of sin to physical healing. I showed you that you took those passages out of context. The passages were about His authority and His deity it is not about equating healing with forgiveness. Just because you posted some obscure passage means nothing.

Who said anything about adding to salvation? Who said healing has anything to do with salvation?

You did on more than one occasion and I quote "I have given you the words of Jesus himself equating the forgiveness of sin to physical healing,"

The Gospel - the good news - encapsulates both salvation and healing. However, salvation and healing are not necessarily requisite for one another.

The gospel is soley that Christ died for our sins and rose again on the third day and we can now escape His wrath because of His righteousness.

[/INDENT]Matt 7 presents several dogma-challenging ideas. First, that the gifts of God can be used by those who are not saved - as long as they are done in Jesus name. (for example, the sorcerers who healed people in Jesus' name in Acts).

Yet again we a fundamental lack of ability to exeget scripture with any reason but instead impose preconceived desires in one of the most grievous eisegetical displays I have seen ever.

No one can do anything in the power of God except they be of God. This verse makes no such suggestion. What is shows is those who claim to do things in Christ but are not. In Deuteronomy we see false prophets as well as in Matt 7. Just because they claim Jesus name in no way proves it was God's power.

Second, implicit in Matt 7:22-23 is the idea that Jesus' name is required for these works to be performed. Meaning again, it is part of what he came here to do. Bearing in mind once again, that he was able to do his healing and miracles as the "son of man" PRIOR to his death and resurrection (prior to his salvation-bringing work). I believe Peter tells us in Acts 3 it is because of Jesus' righteousness. Coupled with Paul in Romans 5, we see that righteousness and life can be passed by Jesus just as the Curse and death were passed by Adam.

Yet another basic lack of understanding of scripture. Jesus performed miracles to show who He was and so that scripture would be fulfilled.

In Matt 8 it clearly states that the healing was done to fulfill scripture and show that he was who He said He was. He was in fact the Messiah. God denied Paul to be healed from the thorn in his flesh. Trying to "equate" healing with salvation is another gospel.

You only believe it is semantics because you believe I meant what YOU said i meant. Well I didn't mean what YOU said I meant... I meant what I said which is very different and does not imply at all what you said. In other words, you misunderstood what I said. Perhaps if you took an exigetical approach to reading my posts you would understand.

It is spelled "exegetical" and your words were clear.

Well considering it was to Abraham that God first made the covenant of faith, I don't see how someone else could have beaten him to it. Paul makes it clear in both Galatians 3 and Romans 4 that Abraham is the "father of those with faith". Jesus himself tells the Israelites in the Jewish temple that they are not the children of Abraham, otherwise they would believe in Him (John 8:39).

Then you need to read Hebrews 11

Then it is good that I have not distorted the gospel, but rather I have attempted to pull down strongholds in your life that have exhaulted themselves against the knowledge of Christ - namely your dogmatic traditions which have no life or power.

Christ was quite dogmatic and so shall I be.And adding to the gospel a false promise of healing is no gospel at all.

[/INDENT]It sounds to me like you are the one who is steeped in eisigetical doctrines. Tell me, Revmitchell, does your church in any way resemble the one in the book of Acts? Does the Holy Spirit bear witness to your church's members with signs and wonders?

It is spelled "eisegetical".

Jhn 5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.



Jhn 5:36 But I have greater witness than [that] of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us;
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
​

Do the believers in your church walk in the power of God, with the Holy Spirit bearing witness to their salvation as it says in Mark 16, or are you a Matthew 23 church?

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness.
​

When was the last time you drank a deadly thing? When was the last time you took up a serpent? See the charasmatics only claim to do those things that can be faked.

They pretend to speak in "tongues" which scripture is clear is a sign only to unbelievers 1 Cr 14:22. Or take up healing that are faked by men like Hinn. And then they cry out for more money and live rich. What a twisted religion they have.


Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[Jedi Knight]

"so it should be no stretch that by Jesus' righteousness in the flesh, healing can be passed" Buzzz..wrong answer!:tongue3: Jesus can heal because HE IS GOD pure and simple.:jesus: He can calm storms too BTW:sleeping_2:

 

[Gup20]

"so it should be no stretch that by Jesus' righteousness in the flesh, healing can be passed" Buzzz..wrong answer!:tongue3: Jesus can heal because HE IS GOD pure and simple.:jesus: He can calm storms too BTW:sleeping_2:

By Acts 3 we know that POWER and Righteousness are necessary for healing.

Act 3:12 And when Peter saw [it], he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?


Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Also,

Mat 9:5 For whether is easier, to say, [Thy] sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

Jesus didn't appeal to his divinity in Matthew 9. He appeals to his humanity.

 

[Gup20]

This comment shows your lack of a basic understanding of the passage or what I said. They did not accuse him of blasphemy for healing, nor did I say such. They accused Him of blasphemy because He claimed to forgive sins. They understood this to be acting in the authority of God or being God.

This comment shows how eisigetical you are - I didn't say they accused him, I said YOU would have.

You have not given one ounce of scripture of anything of the sort. You simply posted scripture and added your meaning to it. Sin is a spiritual problem and is not related to healing of all things which is absurd.

Mat 9:5 For whether is easier, to say, [Thy] sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?

According to Jesus, you are wrong.

Just because Jesus healed and dealt with their sin does not add up to a promise of healing in Isaiah 53.

It is clear from 1 Peter 2 that "by his stripes we are healed" does deal wtih the flesh. It makes sense with Isaiah 53:10 (forming context to verse 5) that this is consistent with 1 Peter 2 - that the meaning of 'healed' can be extended to the flesh.

Christ did not equate forgiveness of sin to physical healing. I showed you that you took those passages out of context. The passages were about His authority and His deity it is not about equating healing with forgiveness. Just because you posted some obscure passage means nothing.

Mat 9:5 For whether is easier, to say, [Thy] sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

He calls himself the Son of man. If this is referring to his authority, he would be saying he got his authority from man, and not from God. Your analysis fails.

You did on more than one occasion and I quote "I have given you the words of Jesus himself equating the forgiveness of sin to physical healing,"

One can be forgiven in the spirit, and unforgiven in the flesh, just as one can be forgiven in the flesh, and unforgiven in the spirit. Healing and salvation can be independent of one another. There is sin of the spirit and sin of the flesh.


Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The gospel is soley that Christ died for our sins and rose again on the third day and we can now escape His wrath because of His righteousness.

Did he die for our spirit's sin or for the sin of our flesh?

Yet again we a fundamental lack of ability to exeget scripture with any reason but instead impose preconceived desires in one of the most grievous eisegetical displays I have seen ever.

Yet you can't find the abilty to demonstrate it, but merely state it as fact with no supporting evidences.

No one can do anything in the power of God except they be of God. This verse makes no such suggestion. What is shows is those who claim to do things in Christ but are not. In Deuteronomy we see false prophets as well as in Matt 7. Just because they claim Jesus name in no way proves it was God's power.

Well according to you no one can do anything in the power of God, even if they be of God. Are you now changing your mind?

Yet another basic lack of understanding of scripture. Jesus performed miracles to show who He was and so that scripture would be fulfilled.

Maybe if you posted some scripture to back up anything you said, I could take you seriously.

In Matt 8 it clearly states that the healing was done to fulfill scripture and show that he was who He said He was. He was in fact the Messiah. God denied Paul to be healed from the thorn in his flesh. Trying to "equate" healing with salvation is another gospel.

Mat 8:1 When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him.
2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
3 And Jesus put forth [his] hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

Wow. Thanks for the suggestion. What a powerful example of Christ's healing power having a direct corelation to sin (disobedience to the law).

He heals the man, then tells him to go make an offering for cleansing according to the Law of Moses. How again does this help your case?

It is spelled "exegetical" and your words were clear.

Bapitist board doesn't have a spell checker, and your being "sophomoric".

Then you need to read Hebrews 11

How many of those listed in Hebrews 11 does it say God counted righteous for their faith? It only says Abraham was counted righteous.

Christ was quite dogmatic and so shall I be.And adding to the gospel a false promise of healing is no gospel at all.

The difference is Christ was right, and you are not. Your words don't even line up with Christ's, as I've demonstrated.

It is spelled "eisegetical".

You didn't answer the question. But by all means, continue spending the bulk of your time on my spelling and grammer. At least you are getting that "right".

When was the last time you drank a deadly thing? When was the last time you took up a serpent?

I don't think the verse limits the power and operation of the Holy Spirit's power to this short list. I have seen many evidences of the Holy Spirit's power in my life.
[/quote]

 

[Revmitchell]

This comment shows how eisigetical you are - I didn't say they accused him, I said YOU would have.

I see you cannot prove your point so you change the subject.

Mat 9:5 For whether is easier, to say, [Thy] sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?

According to Jesus, you are wrong.

That speaks to His authority not the equality of forgiving sins and healing.

It is clear from 1 Peter 2 that "by his stripes we are healed" does deal wtih the flesh. It makes sense with Isaiah 53:10 (forming context to verse 5) that this is consistent with 1 Peter 2 - that the meaning of 'healed' can be extended to the flesh.

Because sin is committed by the flesh does not equate healing with forgiveness of sins.

Mat 9:5 For whether is easier, to say, [Thy] sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

He calls himself the Son of man. If this is referring to his authority, he would be saying he got his authority from man, and not from God. Your analysis fails.

Son of Man is a reference to prophecy as to who the Messiah is.

Mar 2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins

One can be forgiven in the spirit, and unforgiven in the flesh,

Nothing scriptural about that.

Did he die for our spirit's sin or for the sin of our flesh?

He died for sin. Period

Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Well according to you no one can do anything in the power of God, even if they be of God. Are you now changing your mind?

This is a false accusation built on hyperbole.

Maybe if you posted some scripture to back up anything you said, I could take you seriously.

You want me to disprove a negative. You have yet to show anything to support your position.

Mat 8:1 When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him.
2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
3 And Jesus put forth [his] hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

Wow. Thanks for the suggestion. What a powerful example of Christ's healing power having a direct corelation to sin (disobedience to the law).

He heals the man, then tells him to go make an offering for cleansing according to the Law of Moses. How again does this help your case?

If you are not going to read what I said I am not going to repeat myself.

Bapitist board doesn't have a spell checker, and your being "sophomoric".

Both IE and Firefox have it.

How many of those listed in Hebrews 11 does it say God counted righteous for their faith? It only says Abraham was counted righteous.

The whole chapter is about faith of the Saints.

The difference is Christ was right, and you are not. Your words don't even line up with Christ's, as I've demonstrated.

What you have demonstrated is you cannot exeget scripture even remotely reasonable. Not even sure you know what that is.

I don't think the verse limits the power and operation of the Holy Spirit's power to this short list. I have seen many evidences of the Holy Spirit's power in my life.

But it should include it if your own brand of interpretation is correct. Why would those few things have ended?

 

[gb93433]

James 1:21, "Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls." The word used for souls refers to our very life. Salvation affects not only our mind but our very life which includes our physical being as well. You cannot separate the spiritual from the person. You cannot separate the sin from the sinner. To do that is a modern theological myth.

 

[Gup20]

Revmitchell,

What was his name?