Healings - the reality

[Briguy]

I really believe in my heart that God can heal. I know people who had diseases and were cured, through prayer, doctors, etc... Here is the thing though. I have never heard of a person growing a new arm or leg after an amputation. I have never heard of a person, missing an eye, growing a new one. I have never heard of prayer for a "downs syndrome" person healing them from that disease and making them not "downs" anymore.
Generally the healings we hear about and see are internal and not external. If I am honest with myself I must admit that this bothers me. I can pretend it doesn't, but it does. My God is capable of anything but yet there are those things it seems He does not do, in relation to healing people that is. My question is:

Does this bother anyone else? or at least confuse anyone in some way? or maybe I am just on my own island with this. I would like to know your thoughts. I am not sure if I want answers or encouragement but I do know that this is on my mind and heart quite often. Thanks in advance for your answers. (I brought this up in the middle of a different thread once but wanted everyone to have an opportunity to give their thoughts)

In Christ,
Brian

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

No, Briguy, you are decidedly not alone...

I've seen some very amazing things in my life...

Even prayed for others and been answered...

But, seem so very thwarted when praying for myself and family...

Two things, is this narrow regard, I firmly believe...
1. We are called to pray for one another... We need each other...
2. That God answers the prayer of faith... Whether it's the leaders or the supplicants...
Make that Three Things:
3. That God is Sovreign and in possesion of Facts we don't have... He makes all things beautiful in His time... Even if it looks *really* bad right now... And, All things *really* do work together for the good...

To see some of my thoughts look at:
United We Stand - Divided? http://www.houseofmyrrh.org/united.htm

Through The Roof http://www.houseofmyrrh.org/roof.htm

One I need to write up and post is titled "Swiss Cheese Faith"... Basically it addresses my thought that, apart from Salvation, we all have areas of our Faith-Life that have holes it in.

No man is a 'Faith-Island' and self sufficient...

God created the Church as a Collection of Believers both to Evangelize the World and because we need each other...

And, Like Swiss Cheese when we are compacted together in one place you can't penetrate the 'Cheese'... Can't see through it to find a point of attack.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Briguy:
I really believe in my heart that God can heal. I know people who had diseases and were cured, through prayer, doctors, etc... Here is the thing though. I have never heard of a person growing a new arm or leg after an amputation. I have never heard of a person, missing an eye, growing a new one. I have never heard of prayer for a "downs syndrome" person healing them from that disease and making them not "downs" anymore.
Generally the healings we hear about and see are internal and not external. If I am honest with myself I must admit that this bothers me. I can pretend it doesn't, but it does. My God is capable of anything but yet there are those things it seems He does not do, in relation to healing people that is. My question is:

Does this bother anyone else? or at least confuse anyone in some way? or maybe I am just on my own island with this. I would like to know your thoughts. I am not sure if I want answers or encouragement but I do know that this is on my mind and heart quite often. Thanks in advance for your answers. (I brought this up in the middle of a different thread once but wanted everyone to have an opportunity to give their thoughts)

In Christ,
Brian

I see what you are saying but let me tell you why this issue does not bother me. We are in a fallen world with fallen bodies. Just as we don't see an end to war or crime, or an end to disease, we don't see broken bodies healed. God could stop all diseases just as He could give amputed people their limbs back, but He doesn't. God is allowing us to suffer the results of sin this way for his own purposes.

Our bodies will not be totally healed until we have our resurrection bodies.

 

[BobRyan]

Healings come in all flavors from internal - to external and even to raising the dead. But they are one shot deals typically and not a case of someone with the gift of healing passing out a cloth as we see in the NT nor a simple case of someone being touched by someone with the gift of healing.

Someone gets sick with a cold - we pray for them - they get well. Not particularly surprising and in truth - we expected them to get well anyway. But I "believe" God added grace and healing in their case anyway.

Some child is runnover by a car, goes in a coma and is not expected to live according to Medical science. But prayer is had for them and they survive. That gets a little more attention.

But someone without an arm - suddenly getting one, someone without an eye getting one in answer to prayer - that is something we don't find. (However it would not surprise me if there was a lone story about one case where that happened in the mission field etc).

Your point that God does not heal in consistent, fantastic, amazing ways as He did in the NT is well taken. But then we don't have those gifts of healing today and that is no coincidence. It is a lack of spiritual health in the church that prevents the fullest measure of the gifts TO the church from being received. Prior to Pentecost they were in purity of doctrine and faith and in full submission to God - fasting and praying for ten days - all in one accord. Waiting expectantly for the promised Gift of the Holy Spirit (not simply claiming they already had it - since they could talk gibberish when they felt like it).

Christ did instant and complete healings. Peter healed the cripple who began leaping in the air. The blind received sight - lepers that were physically deformed received full use of all limbs etc.

God cares. But the church is in compromise.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Good Points Bob,

We all know it takes (normally) a certain amount of time for a common cold to be 'naturally' healed through the bodies own defense mechanism...

Or, the Oral Surgeon may say that after having wisdom teeth cut out it will take x number of days to heal and come back I'll take the stiches out...

When God adds Grace as an answer to our prayers the 'normal' time can be dramatically shortened giving us the choice to either attribute it to God or not...

Ex... I had some widsom teeth cut out and had a church praying for me... The oral surgeon said to check back in three days to a week...

Yet, the next morning I woke up and the swelling was so far down that the stitches were hanging loose in my mouth and getting caught every time I moved my jaw...

That got frustrating, so, I cut the stitches myself and pulled the loose ends out... And, prompty forgot about it and went about my business.

A week later the Oral Surgeons office calls (7th Day Adventists) and asks me when I'm going to come in and get the stitches removed...

I replied that the church prayed for me and I had healed so quickly I had to take them out myself the next morning... And, there was dead silence on the other end for a few moments.

In this I give God praise. It wasn't the normal healing process. God had mercy on me.

 

[Briguy]

Thanks for the great comments. It seems like we agree that people are not going to healing services with one leg and coming out with two. People suffering from Downs Syndrome are not walking into faith healers and coming out without their disability. Maybe this should not bother me but it does. Lets face it and SMM gives us an example to work with. God may have indeed healed up SMM's mouth more quickly then it should have healed. We hear that and accept that. Why couldn't SMM being sharing a story that he lost a finger in a lawn mower accident and went to church for prayer and grew a new finger. If that would have been his story we would have thought he was just kidding us. We would not believe that really happened, and especially if it was a whole hand. We hear people say that they were healed from cancer and things like that and that seems great but why would God stop at that type of healing. Bob, you are right that without the gift of healing active that does account for many miraculous healings not being done but we all believe God can do anything in response to prayer. Marcia, I agree we are a fallen world and sin is why our bodies are and get broken. But we do think that God heals sometimes right? or is God not healing and something else is happening? If God does heal sometimes why does he stop short at the obvious miraculous healing. Man, can you imagine a video camera pointed at a person without a leg and then people pray over him and a new leg grows, wow, how cool would that be. It hasn't happened and frankly I don't think it will. I am still trying to get a handle on this and appreciate the comments so far. Anyone else care to chime in?

btw, I am fine and I know no one at this time that needs a new limb or anything like that. I just hear peole say all the time that God healed this person or that person, but all the healings are internal and can't be seen. I don't doubt God or love Him less because ot this i am just trying to grasp the logic of this.

In Christian Love,
Brian

 

[Marcia]

Marcia, I agree we are a fallen world and sin is why our bodies are and get broken. But we do think that God heals sometimes right? or is God not healing and something else is happening? If God does heal sometimes why does he stop short at the obvious miraculous healing. Man, can you imagine a video camera pointed at a person without a leg and then people pray over him and a new leg grows, wow, how cool would that be. It hasn't happened and frankly I don't think it will. I am still trying to get a handle on this and appreciate the comments so far.

Yes, I do think God heals -- sometimes. And that is part of the point of my view. He is not healing miraculously the way it was done with "signs and wonders" in the early church or the way Christ healed when he was here, because the signs and wonders were a testimony to Christ and his followers. Also, remember that some saw the signs and still rejected Christ.

If God started healing people the way you described (not healings where other explanations are possible -- for example, some diseases go into remission or tumors shrink and people claim they were healed when actually these things can happen naturally) we would not be walking by faith but by sight. These are the days when we do not see Jesus walking the earth, but we have God's word and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. God apparently considers this sufficient. Since I believe God is all-wise, just, and merciful, it does not bother me that He is not healing this way because He knows better and it's up to Him.

Also, our desire to see people healed like this (as well as maybe desires for peace, less crime, etc.) causes in us the appreciation of the justice Christ will bring on His return; it causes us to long for Him even more, which I think is very Biblical.

 

[ChurchBoy]

Briguy,

I know where you are coming from. I was saved in Charismatic church and people told me about such and such healings but I have never seen a lost limb restored. As I grew in my faith I became to read and study Church history and theology and came to a point where I didn't agree with some of my church's doctrines.

I also wonder why we don't see "spectacular" healings like the NT. It would certainly silence skeptics and atheists in a second. But I realize that God's ways are not our ways. There is a purpose in how things in our world unfold. I know that as a follower in Jesus Christ I do not need to see miracles. My faith is in Jesus and not miracles. My salvation is a miracle in itself.

 

[Walguy]

"For false christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. Lo, I have told you beforehand." - Matthew 24:24-25

I believe one big reason why those kind of indisputably miraculous healings don't happen is because in the end times there will be servants of Satan performing those kind of miracles, for the purpose of deception. God wants those of us who believe in Him and are alive then to be able to know that when something like that happens, He DIDN'T do it. If He were also performing those kind of miracles then, or had been during any recent period, it would be difficult if not impossible to tell which healing was which. By ending that kind activity among true believers back in the 1st century, He pre-empted that potential confusion.
This should be a sobering thought for those who insist that God must supply a constant stream of miraculous signs, including 'tongues.' Jesus addressed that matter as well:

"On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.'" - Matthew 7:22-23

I'm NOT saying everyone who believes in 'tongues' or other miraculous signs/sign gifts falls into that category, but at the very least such people are helping Satan lay the foundation for the kind of deception that will be seen as the end of the present age approaches. Something to think about.

 

[Briguy]

Thanks all, those were helpful answers. I will pray about this in light of the new information. It seems that many would still say that the healings they have seen were miraculous and indisputable. I think this thread should give those who believe in an active gift of "healing" a reason to re-think their position. Thanks again

In Christ,
Brian

 

[D28guy]

Marcia,

"Yes, I do think God heals -- sometimes. And that is part of the point of my view. He is not healing miraculously the way it was done with "signs and wonders" in the early church or the way Christ healed when he was here, because the signs and wonders were a testimony to Christ and his followers.

Let me say, as one who is part of the "charismatic/pentecostal" branch of the body of Christ, that I agree with what a lot of people are troubled by, that being that there are fakes and charlatons who are "tares" among the "wheat" in Christianity.

But at the same time I tend to disagree with you, and millions of others would as well, when you say that God is no longer moving in miraculous healing and "signs and wonders" as He did before.

We see it with our own eyes, or we experience it in our own bodies. Our faith in no way is dependant on them, but rather our faith is sustained by Gods faithfullness and reality in our lives, and His testimony found in the scriptures.

But...there are many scriptures where Jesus Christ told people that that great things could have been done, but people had no faith. With others, He would say "According to your faith, be it unto you".

The many scriptures that speak of these things seem to indicate that if large numbers of people believe that "God no longer does miracles anymore", those brothers and sisters will probably get just what they are believing for...nothing.

I say probably because God still does on occasion do things just to shake people out of their comfort zone sometimes. Praise God...\o/... that He does!

Regarding limbs being grown out, I have not personally ever seen that, but I have heard about those things happening. I have heard of resurrections from the dead. And I have every reason to believe it. If its true or not I dont know, but I have as much reason to believe its true as I do to believe it isnt. Actually more.

I have gone into a church service sick, and come out well. I have prayed for myself, or had others pray for me, when sick here at home, and become well very quickly. I have prayed for Gods miraculous intercession in situations, and had very rapid results become evident. I have heard multitudes upon multitudes of testimonies from people who I know personally who have experienced mind bogglingly amazing things in their lives.

Because of all these things, when I hear of a limb being grown out in another country, my 1st inclination...of course...is to believe it, and say "Praise the Lord!". If someone can prove to me its a fake, they are more then welcome to. I already acknowledged that there are fakes out there.

But...my 1st inclination is to believe, and then if its proven to be false, well, then thats too bad.

"Also, remember that some saw the signs and still rejected Christ."

You are 100% correct. Some do. The one thing that is indispensable is the gospel of Jesus Christ, and that gospel proclaimed.

The gospel fuels signs and wonders, not the other way around.

Our Lord told us 2000 years ago that signs and wonders will follow those who proclaim the gospel. And that has proven to be so...even up until 2004.

Of course, thats not to say that a preacher of the gospel, who doesnt believe for signs and wonders, wont be effective. Not at all. The gospel is anointed of God in and of itself, as is that preacher.

God bless,

Mike

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

D28guy, Mike,

For satan to do counterfeit works...

Wouldn't the reality have to occur first?

I wonder how many here would dare read the book "Like A Mighty Wind" by Mel Tari as told to Cliff Dudley, Creation House Publishers...

'all'
First Question: Is God *able* to restore sight to the blind, raise the dead, or create a replacement limb... Of Course He can!

Second Question: What would the natural response be of the average American should such a 'faith Healer' come on the scene? Please consider the idolization of Televangelists when considering the answer to this question.

Would it be possible in today's church environment to remain humble if you were used by God in such a way? Would those around allow you to remain so? Would you want to?

I honestly don't know if any late 20th century 'Faith Healer' has done any of the above things...

The last anecdotal report I know of is Smith Wigglesworth marching (like a crazy man) into a dead womans house, into the room where she was laid out, and bodily throwing her up against the wall and commanding her to live... The report says she did.

This wasn't something he did everyday. After all mere plumbers aren't a spiritual lot.

So, I suspect that the fact that God will not share His Glory with any man and modern man's tendency to 'Spiritually One Up' one another may be a primary reason for the lack of awesome miracles today...

IMHO, they would be more likely to happen in out of the way places where they couldn't get much notoriety...

But, then the average Christian wouldn't bother to pray in such a way because only the big name men of God have Faith like that!

In truth I suspect an untrained teen would have better luck praying than most of us 'trained' adults simply because they don't know it can't be done.

I have another anecdotal tale where a science teacher, new Christian, was trying to teach 'science' when a few teens who were part of the Guam Jesus People Revival decided they didn't like seeing their friend confined to a wheel chair anymore...

So, during class they ignored the teacher and prayed for him... The report says he got out of his wheelchair...

How much urban legend? How much truth? I wasn't there. But, some truly spectacular things were documented during that time. (mid '70's)

The idea of 'plausible deniability' has been mentioned... I think there is a certain amount of truth in it... That, miracles happen around us every day those that want to notice, do, and give God the Glory...

Whether it's that close call on the interstate where just in the nick of time you swerved some fool, on a wet road, and maintained perfect control in spite of your overly worn tires...

We either believe God is intimately and individually involved with His Children's lives or we don't. Probably not that cut and dry, though

As an illustration I use one Randy Stonehill gave at a concert one time...

In his home he has a den long skinny den. At one end there is a fireplace. Somewhere in the middle is Randy's favorite recliner...

Well, when Randy's son was a toddler one day Randy is reading in the recliner and the son, just learning to walk, goes zooming by on his way to an inevitable collision with the fireplace.

Randy jumps up and intercepts the little bundle of activity and turns him around and explains the dangers, etc. etc. etc.

After several tries at 'logic' Randy decides to sit one out and let the son teach himself a lesson. Which inevitably he does...

Next thing you know Randy's wife is bawling Randy out for the 'lesson' he just taught his son.

But, the son never ran into the fireplace again...

I am not sure why this story came to mind...

But, I have to wonder if, sometimes, an omniscient God doesn't do what we like because He knows we will use it to end up doing evil...

What temptations could or would the blind person see and succumb to if they recieved their sight.

What mischief would the amputee run to if they got thier leg back.

We 'think' we are so smart... But, we are dealing with a *very* limited ken of knowledge, and, stuck as we are in time, don't always consider the eternal ramifications of a thing we desire.

Well, that's my morsel of food for thought today...

 

[tamborine lady]

SMM, I have read "LIke a Mighty Wind" and your'e right, it is an awesome book.

You are right again on the fact that for the devil to imitate something, there first has to be some thing to imitate.

One of the reasons that some people think that the gift of healing is not for today is that they have the mistaken idea that the apostles healed all of the sick people all the time.

This is not scriptural. Please look at the following:

Acts 6-7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Greek word for manyfrom the Strongs concordance)

4183. poluv polus, pol-oos'

including the forms from the alternate pollos; (singular) much (in any respect) or (plural) many; neuter (singular) as adverbial, largely; neuter (plural) as adverb or noun often, mostly, largely:--abundant, + altogether, common, + far (passed, spent), (+ be of a) great (age, deal, -ly, while), long, many, much, oft(-en (-times)), plenteous, sore, straitly. Compare 4118, 4119.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Matt 12-15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;

Greek word for allfrom Strongs concordance)

3956. pav pas,

including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole:--all (manner of, means), alway(-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no(-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

All is not the same as many. All means everyone. Many is a bunch, almost all, but not ALL!!

So not every one was healed every time!!

Acts 9-39 Then Peter arose and went with them. When he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber: and all the widows stood by him weeping, and showing the coats and garments which Dorcas made, while she was with them.
40 But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.
41 And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.

This is an interesting scripture, in that Peter did the same as Jesus, he put the unbelievers out. and then the miricle happened. These were not unbelievers in Jesus, because it says he called the "Saints" and presented her ALIVE to them!!

We are to become as little children to receive what God has for us.

Working for Jesus,

Tam

 

[tamborine lady]

Matthew 18-3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.


We have to take some things on blind faith, just like children do.

Tam

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

One of the reasons that some people think that the gift of healing is not for today is that they have the mistaken idea that the apostles healed all of the sick people all the time.

Tam

Tam, I'm going to use your quote to make a point.

If one would look at 1 Cor. 12, you will notice that it does not say that a person is given "The gift of healing." Meaning, that a person *doesn't* carry around a gift that is to be used at will.

It says, "the gift(s) of healing" by the same Spirit;

I feel that it means that "gift(s) of healing" are given to the ones that believe in the word of God.

My .02 cents worth!

MEE

 

[tamborine lady]

Good observation MEE. You're right of course, it is gifts.

And they are given ONLY to the people who believe in them!

Thanks, MEE, maybe we need to do "tag team "posts!!

Tam

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

Good observation MEE. You're right of course, it is gifts.

And they are given ONLY to the people who believe in them!

Thanks, MEE, maybe we need to do "tag team "posts!!

Tam

Give me a "High five!"

MEE

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Interesting point, Mee...

So, you would agree, then, that the Spirit is "The Gift", and the manifestations we keep calling "Gifts" are there because of the Spirit's Presence in Response to Faith?

So, in one sense, anyone with the Holy Spirit "Attendant" is a candidate for any of the 'Manifestations' of the Holy Spirit's Presence?

Whether they are a 'tongue-talker' or not?

My point is this...

And, although I strongly believe in a 2nd definate act of Grace in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with initial physical evidence of Speaking in Other Tongues...

I also believe, just as strongly, (perhaps more so), that the 'Manifestations of the Holy Spirit's presence are "Faith/Expectation" contingent not 'Tongue Talking' contingent.

That is a non-Pentecostal can operate in any areas of Gifting which they are open to... By Expectant Faith.

Because the Holy Spirit is present with them, and responds to Faith. Even the tiny faith of *any* believer.

Niether 'we' Pentecostals, nor 'Faith-Healers', nor 'Prophets' have a monopoly on God...

And, in all things God remains Sovreign Lord.

 

[tamborine lady]

Look at the following scripture:

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Could it be that the Holy Ghost is the MAIN gift and then He gives us "gifts" to use?? Whenever He wants us to use them??

Just a thought!!

Working for Jesus,

Tam

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by SpiritualMadMan:
Interesting point, Mee...

So, in one sense, anyone with the Holy Spirit "Attendant" is a candidate for any of the 'Manifestations' of the Holy Spirit's Presence?

Whether they are a 'tongue-talker' or not?

SMM, let me ask you a question!

How could a person that hasn't been baptized with the Holy Ghost ever give a message in tongues, as the Spirit gives the utterance or give an interpratation, as the Spirit reveals what was spoken, if they have *never* spoken to tongues?

MEE