Healings - the reality

[SpiritualMadMan]

I guess if he gave the message he or she would be baptized at the same instant.

The point I am trying to make is this...

It is God who wills to do and work in us according to our faith...

While a 'non-tongue-talker' may not be "Baptized" as we Pentecostals understand it, they still must have the Spirit of the Living God "attendant" as the Paraclete (one who walks alongside and helps).

Else they could not have been saved, because no man comes to the Father except the Spirit draw him.

So, if it is Faith the moves God's Hand through the Spirit's Work... And, the Spirit must be present for Salvation...

Then basically the one thing we 'Pentecostals' *really* have is an ever present 'proof' and 'expectation' of the Spirit's Working.

IMHO, if a Baptist were in a position where they absolutely had to speak a foreign language God could and would give them the Words to speak in the self-same hour... If they were in a sufficiently tight enough spot to have to rely on God to do so...

By the same token any Baptist with Faith can potentially manifest *any* of the Manifestations of the Spirit's Presence that they are open to...

For the Baptist it would be a crisis miracle (perhaps) and a one time unexpected event because they have not been taught that God still moves in these ways today...

For the Pentecostal it might well be 'business as usual'... (Not sure how much Glory God would get out of that attitude, though.)

Here's the problem as I see it. When we back a Baptist into the corner we negate most if not all of the potential for God to move in areas where he has been taught God can move...

In short by not giving a non-Pentecostal 'Breathing' room we end up guilty in the opposite direction of the same sins we accuse them of.

Personally, I think we have overblown the 'Pentecostal' experience to the point that some Pentecostals worship the Pentecostal Experience rather than the Giver of the Spirit...

I know there is a fine line here. Especially for a Pentecostal...

But, I would far rather see my Baptist Brethren walking in the Spirit to the extent they are currently comfortable instead of rejecting everything God *may* have for them out of hand because we are so zealous...

At least if they walk in the Spirit a little... The Spirit has a chance to lead them further **IF** He so wills.

With the forums permission I'd like to present the scriptures we use to validate our belief that Tongues is *the* *only* initial evidence...

Unfortunately, DHK, Briguy and others can make just as good a case, from scripture, that our case is circumstantial.

If a Baptist can in loving concern pray for a friend in faith and see cancer go into remission... I personally don't really care if he/she ever talks in tongues...

As long as they walk by faith and minister to one another in faith to the best of their ability and understanding...

 

[Briguy]

SMM, you remind me of what is really important. Sometimes folks like Carol and Tam in their quest for things of the "spirit" lose sight of the real "evidence" of being saved, and having the Holy Spirit indwell us. That of course is LOVE. Love for God and love for eachother. Your LOVE will set you apart as a Christian, not speaking in tongues, reading the Bible, etc...

As the old song says:
"They'll know we are Christians by our love"

BTW, There are many Biblical examples of faith having nothing to do with healings, miracles, etc... God may move because of faith but it is not the Biblical rule by a long stretch. In terms of salvation Trust and Faith mean everything.

In Christ, Brian

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Agreed, Briguy,

Sometimes it's an act of faith to get out of bed in the morning and face another day of same ole same ole...

Whether at church or at work...

If we *really* didn't have any faith that God *really* does love us and He does keep His Word... Why bother trying..

1Co 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

But, He **IS** faithful who has promised! AMEN!

 

[Jude]

I think that the 'westernization' of the Church has infected our thinking, our theology and practice, our expectations and our results. I believe we would see MORE miracles/healings if we were more 'open' and more holy. The reason the 3rd world sees so-many more miracles is that they ARE open, they ARE holy, they ARE committed, and they have sacrificed MUCH for their faith (and the Lord honors that). Isn't it true, though, that conversion is the grandest miracle of all? Many on this board can claim THAT gift and that experience.

 

[tamborine lady]

Briguy, since you make no comment, I get the fealing you might have missed this post by myself.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
One of the reasons that some people think that the gift of healing is not for today is that they have the mistaken idea that the apostles healed all of the sick people all the time.

This is not scriptural. Please look at the following:

Acts 6-7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Greek word for manyfrom the Strongs concordance)

4183. poluv polus, pol-oos'

including the forms from the alternate pollos; (singular) much (in any respect) or (plural) many; neuter (singular) as adverbial, largely; neuter (plural) as adverb or noun often, mostly, largely:--abundant, + altogether, common, + far (passed, spent), (+ be of a) great (age, deal, -ly, while), long, many, much, oft(-en (-times)), plenteous, sore, straitly. Compare 4118, 4119.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Matt 12-15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;

Greek word for allfrom Strongs concordance)

3956. pav pas,

including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole:--all (manner of, means), alway(-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no(-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

All is not the same as many. All means everyone. Many is a bunch, almost all, but not ALL!!

So not every one was healed every time!!

Acts 9-39 Then Peter arose and went with them. When he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber: and all the widows stood by him weeping, and showing the coats and garments which Dorcas made, while she was with them.
40 But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.
41 And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.

This is an interesting scripture, in that Peter did the same as Jesus, he put the unbelievers out. and then the miricle happened. These were not unbelievers in Jesus, because it says he called the "Saints" and presented her ALIVE to them!!

We are to become as little children to receive what God has for us.


Tam

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by Briguy:
SMM, you remind me of what is really important. Sometimes folks like Carol and Tam in their quest for things of the "spirit" lose sight of the real "evidence" of being saved, and having the Holy Spirit indwell us. That of course is LOVE. Love for God and love for eachother. Your LOVE will set you apart as a Christian, not speaking in tongues, reading the Bible, etc...

In Christ, Brian

Brian, a "Quest for the things of the Spirit" comes to a person if and I say "if" they have the Spirit of God.

I don't know how you can say that one doesn't have "love" if they pursue the things that be of God.

That would be like putting the cart before the horse. Love would have to come first...wouldn't ya think?

MEE

 

[Briguy]

Hi Tam, I didn't mean to ignore your post. The scripture you quoted was out of Acts 8. Here are two versions of it.

Acts 8 - KJV
[6] And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
[7] For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
[8] And there was great joy in that city.

Acts 8 - YLT
6 the multitudes also were giving heed to the things spoken by Philip, with one accord, in their hearing and seeing the signs that he was doing,
7 for unclean spirits came forth from many who were possessed, crying with a loud voice, and many who have been paralytic and lame were healed,
8 and there was great joy in that city.

I think you are reading this wrong. We are all guilty, me included, of reading scripture and putting our own twist on what is said. When I read these verses I see the word many as the word many but not in regards to who was healed. The many here is in relation to the number of people present, not those that were healed. Of the people that were there many had palsies, many had unclean spirits, and Phillip healed the many. In context this way makes a lot more sense because how many who had these things could have been in one place at that time. Read your way it is like there were hunderds of people with palsies and say 75% were healed, and the same for those with unclean spirits. This scripture is just making a point that Phillip did the miracles/healings that he professed God would do. There were obviously lots of other diseases and illnesses that he healed at that time, not just the two, but this scripture tells us that "many" that were there had palsies and unclean spirits. Hope that made sense.

Carol, what I was saying is that while some are in their homes praying in tongues day after day, they could be ministering to others instead of to themselves. Is time spent by a person, saying words to themselves that they don't understand(which Pauls says is "unfruitful), the best way for a Christian to show the world they love God?, when we know love is shown by how we miniter to others, not how we edify ourselves. Carol, I hope that didn't sound harsh because I like the "spunk" in your posts and do not want to offend you. I really believe you care about God and His ways, even if we disagree about some of the "ways". Take care sister,

In Christian Love,
Brian

 

[tamborine lady]

Yes Brian, I see exactly how you are reading it, which is convenient for what you already believe.

The same goes for the way I read it.( it is convenient for the way I believe).

Don't take this the wrong way, but I sometimes think that if Jesus Himself came down and spoke to you and told you "not all were healed" you still would not believe it!

Is there a road block some where in your mind that says it couldn't be the way others say?

Peace,

Tam

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

I think Briguy has a point, though, when he asks the question of whether it is "fruitful" in a 'Spiritual' sense to spend all one's time praying in tongues but never putting all that Pentecostal Power to use...

So, I pray in tongues... Great! But, what is the result?

Do I then use that Pentecostal Power to seek ways to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and heal the sick?

Or, do I remain in my own little "Bless Me" club?

Now, I know there are many Pentecostals/Charismatics/ and Baptists who *DO* all of the above "Spiritual Fasts"...

But, the troubling thing is... Not enough do... For all our Spirituality... We *still* rely on government to do the churches job for us...

It's a valid point and question...

God is Love... Fact... Paul preferred the word Charity... Which God showed by putting His love in action through His Son (Our Lord) Jesus on the Cross...

No man can call Jesus Lord except by the Spirit of God... 1 Cor 12:3 (Not mere verbal assent but a Life 'Confession'.) Fact

No man commeth to the Father except the Spirit draw him... Fact...

So, whether we all agree on the semantical constructs or not...

If a Baptist lives a life that confesses Jesus as Lord... They *at least* have the Spirit "attendant".

So, to say that a Baptist does not have The Spirit of the Living God simply because they have not spoken in tongues, IMHO, is poor exegesis...

Is calling into question a person's salvation, a person who steadfastly lives, confesses and defends the Word of God, an act of Love?

He that loveth not... Knoweth not God... Fact...

Something to think about?

 

[Briguy]

Hi Tam, now that I pointed that out, which meaning realy makes more sense, in the grand context of the Bible, that is. I am glad you see what I see the verse say. Maybe we should do a poll and see who sees it your way and who sees it mine. Could be interesting. I think I have logic and context on my side. You have wishful thinking on your side (ha ha ha - just teasing ya)

SMM, I actually like what you have been saying the last few posts. Thanks for the insight!

In Christ our Lord,
Brian

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by Briguy:


Carol, what I was saying is that while some are in their homes praying in tongues day after day, they could be ministering to others instead of to themselves. Is time spent by a person, saying words to themselves that they don't understand(which Pauls says is "unfruitful), the best way for a Christian to show the world they love God?, when we know love is shown by how we miniter to others, not how we edify ourselves. Carol, I hope that didn't sound harsh because I like the "spunk" in your posts and do not want to offend you. I really believe you care about God and His ways, even if we disagree about some of the "ways". Take care sister,

In Christian Love,
Brian

Brian Brian, where did you get the idea that people that pray in the Spirit do this day after day without getting up from kneeling down on their knees?

Do you really think that we don't have a life besides speaking in tongues? I don't know about other churches, but the one I attend does far more than any that I've come in contact with. I'm not saying that other churches don't do anything because I have no way of knowing what other do.

The one I attend supports missionaries, prision ministries, have special Bible studies, ministers to the poor, (food and clothing) sign language classes, our Pastor and his TV ministry, special book store, classed for battered women and men, special ministry for family members' children, food baskets for the holidays,..... Brian the list could go on and on. God had really blessed us tremendously. Without Him none of it would be possible. We, as a church, give Him all of the glory and honour that He deserves.

Keep in mind that "praying in the Spirit" is the source that keeps all of the above thriving.

MEE

 

[tamborine lady]

Brian, LOL

don't you think that would be a little bit lop sided on that poll you proposed?

After all, it is a "Baptist" board!!

God Bless,

Tam

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

Brian, LOL

don't you think that would be a little bit lop sided on that poll you proposed?

After all, it is a "Baptist" board!!

God Bless,

Tam

Oh Tam, don't you have a point! I'm not sure if there is possibly five members that aren't Baptist. I have been wondering what happened to all of the Catholics. One day they were here and the next...\poof/...they were gone.

Do ya think they went in the rapture?

NOT!!!

MEE

 

[D28guy]

Just for the record...

I AM NOT A BAPTIST!!!

God bless,

Mike

 

[Briguy]

Hi Carol, I do believe you and your church reach out. I was really just trying to make a point that in the craziness of life in 2004 we have such limited time, well I do anyway, that anytime I would spend edifying myself(which I believe Paul clearly says a "gift" should never be used for) would be better spent helping someone that is hurting or that needs me. I would rather play a game with my children and spend time with them the spend a half hour whispering words I do not understand. Anyhow it wasn't a cut on you in particular just a general statement of what could be the case (in a broad sense).

Tam, I am not Baptist either. Lets do the poll and see what happens, unless you are really against it. I will wait until I hear from you before I start it.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[tamborine lady]

Go ahead Brian, do your poll.

But I can give you the results before you even begin. You will win.

Thank God we don't go by what man thinks, but by what God says!!

But go ahead, it should be interesting. (maybe I will be surprised)

Tam

 

[tamborine lady]

Brian, you said:

I would rather play a game with my children and spend time with them the spend a half hour whispering words I do not understand.

I have a question for you. Are you always filled with Love for your fellow man, and compassion and understanding? Always know how to help others?

If not, how do you get the input from God to be able to help others?

Peace,

Tam

 

[Briguy]

Yes and No,
I have a deep compassion for all people (I am a social worker even) but I don't always know what to do. I do seek God's help in prayer and hear from him while praying or at other times and other ways. Maybe I am wrong but it was my belief that a tongue speaker does both tongue prayer and prayer where they know what they are saying. I am not implying we should not have a prayer life, we need to talk to God. I was saying doing both seemed to be too much talk and not enough action. Hope that clears up what I was thinking. I will try to start poll by tomorrow morning. Take care,
In Christ,
Brian

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Briguy,

Please word your Poll carefully.

What do you think about a thread on Prayer?

I think I can safely say that all the major revivals in the past came about as a result of carpet drenching prayer...

Some may have been in tongues...

More were probably not...

I doubt anyone really knows for sure because the intensity of the prayers for revival were of such great depth and anguish of soul...

I don't think anyone was really paying attention to the language of men but rather the language of broken and contrite hearts.

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by Briguy:
Hi Carol, I do believe you and your church reach out. I was really just trying to make a point that in the craziness of life in 2004 we have such limited time, well I do anyway, that anytime I would spend edifying myself(which I believe Paul clearly says a "gift" should never be used for) would be better spent helping someone that is hurting or that needs me. I would rather play a game with my children and spend time with them the spend a half hour whispering words I do not understand. Anyhow it wasn't a cut on you in particular just a general statement of what could be the case (in a broad sense).

In Christ,
Brian

Brian, I don't think that you understand "speaking in tongues" as the Spirit gives the utterance or the different uses of this manifestation of God.

When a person prays, sometimes the Spirit that dwells within will take over and pray for what we need, which may not be known to us.

Romans 8:26) Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Prayer is good, but it's like having 110 volts of electricity compared to a person that "prays in the Spirit" which would be like having 220 volts.

I'm not an electrition, but do you see the comparison?

BTW, sometimes this board gets a little 'heated' but I think you are a great guy!

PS---> as well as some of the rest of y'all!

MEE