Healings - the reality

[D28guy]

Briguy,

"I was really just trying to make a point that in the craziness of life in 2004 we have such limited time, well I do anyway, that anytime I would spend edifying myself(which I believe Paul clearly says a "gift" should never be used for) would be better spent helping someone that is hurting or that needs me."

There is a time for all things.

Mary and Martha were both there with Jesus. Martha was very very concerned about everybody else. "Ministering" to others, in a sense. Running around doing this, doing that, helping here, helping there. However, Jesus said that Martha was "distracted with much serving".

Mary simply sat at Jesus feet.

Jesus told the Martha...

"Martha Martha. You are worried and troubled about many many things. But one thing is needed, and Mary has chosen that better part, which will not be taken away from her."

There is a saying we hear from time to time, that so and so "Is so Spiritually minded, they are no earthly good."

There surely is truth to that in some cases, but I think the greater problem is those who are "so earthly minded, they are of no Spiritual good"

God bless,

Mike

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

D28...

Question: Which of the two sisters exhibited more faith when Jesus actually came on the scene, though?

I am of the opinion that Martha actually had a closer relationship to Jesus than Mary.

Why? because she was confident enough of that relationship to 'Work'. (Some might say Mary was clingy.)

And, she remained confident enough to speak her mind when Jesus arrived on the scene after Lazarus died...

She confessed and knew Jesus was the Resurrection and the Life...

What she wasn't expecting was a "Today Miracle". Though she obviously had faith for one.

One thing is needed...

Mary has chosen that better part...

Is that for everyone? All the time? Consider the context of Jewish custom and the requirements expected of a host or hostess in this case...

What I am saying is that Jesus was not denouncing 'Work' nor was He elevating settling on our lees...

My personal conviction was the Better part was for Mary... And, it was a gentle rebuke for Martha to shut up and leave her sister alone because she *needed* that quiet time with Jesus because her faith was not yet where it needed to be.

I know it goes against most theologians who like to say Mary was the perfect saint and sister.

And, I readily admit that it is merely one man's opinion.

The fact is we are to put feet to our prayers.

It is not enough while in this body to merely wish someone well in Jesus Name and do nothing for their human needs.

To be spiritually minded is to have the Compassion and Love of Christ in action...

There is a time to prove ones faith by works...

And, there is a time to prove one's faith by standing silently and letting God take care of it...

Briguy's point is well taken. But, I believe he'd be the first to admit his total knowledge of Pentecostal Practices may be a bit incomplete?

But, don't you think it's sad that for all our 'bragging' about Pentecostal Power that another group of believers would be *able* to have the notion that all 'we' do is sit around in prayer meeting talking in tongues?

Somehow I get the impression that our testimony in practice doesn't match our testimony in words...

 

[Claudia_T]

Concerning the story of Mary and Martha, one Christian Writer put it this way:

"As Christ gave His wonderful lessons, Mary sat at His feet, a reverent and devoted listener. On one occasion, Martha, perplexed with the care of preparing the meal, went to Christ, saying, "Lord, dost Thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me." This was the time of Christ's first visit to Bethany. The Saviour and His disciples had just made the toilsome journey on foot from Jericho. Martha was anxious to provide for their comfort, and in her anxiety she forgot the courtesy due to her Guest. Jesus answered her with mild and patient words, "Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: but one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her." Mary was storing her mind with the precious words falling from the Saviour's lips, words that were more precious to her than earth's most costly jewels.

The "one thing" that Martha needed was a calm, devotional spirit, a deeper anxiety for knowledge concerning the future, immortal life, and the graces necessary for spiritual advancement. She needed less anxiety for the things which pass away, and more for those things which endure forever. Jesus would teach His children to seize every opportunity of gaining that knowledge which will make them wise unto salvation. The cause of Christ needs careful, energetic workers. There is a wide field for the Marthas, with their zeal in active religious work. But let them first sit with Mary at the feet of Jesus. Let diligence, promptness, and energy be sanctified by the grace of Christ; then the life will be an unconquerable power for good."

It isnt as though we will ever come to the point that we stop needing to spend quiet time with Jesus, listening to His Word... because we somehow have so much faith that we no longer need Jesus... The truth is that without Jesus, and without spending time in communion with Him, our work is MEANINGLESS and unfruitful. "Busy Work" means nothing if there isnt a relationship and a connection with Christ.

Mk:6:31: And he said unto them, Come ye yourselves apart into a desert place, and rest a while

Jn:15:4: Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

As far as "Healings" goes, one thing I have noticed throughout the years as a Christian is that it seems many who are in the "tongues" movement and into "Healing" are all caught up in external physical healing as "miracles" and "signs" of their connection with God.

But the truth is that Jesus came to "save His people from their sins" ... not just by forgiveness of those sins but by healing spiritual sickness and the disease of sin.

Many Christians want all the benefits but do not want to have to really give up sin. If Jesus is truly allowed to be their "Healer" He will be allowed to heal them of every sin and spiritual disease in their lives.

It's relatively easy to claim God is with us because of some outer "miracle"... but you know, Satan does miracles too. The real proof God is with you is that you allow His Spirit to live within and root out all sin and everything that goes against His Word.

You can hoop and holler and hop around and shout "glory and praise the Lord" and do the gibberish all you want but it means NOTHING to God. He wants you to glorify Him by a complete surrender to His will in all things... a healing of all spiritual diseases.

Satan leads so many to deceptions which have to do with outer "signs" and "miracles" and physical healings, especially as time on earth is nearing it's end.


1 Cor 13:1: Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

What IS love?
Romans 13:8-10
"Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

Love is keeping God's Law, His Commandments. And the Bible says if we claim to speak in tongues but dont have love, then this is useless.

Isaiah 8:19: And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
20: To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Many claim to have "The Spirit" but if this so-called spirit leads them to claim they can do away with God's Law, be afraid of them. And if this possession of the "spirit" leads them to put more emphasis on "healing" and speaking in tongues" to the disregard of getting rid of sin in their lives... be wary of them.

There is a reason why God's Spirit is called the HOLY Spirit. If The Spirit of God is in us we will as a result live holy lives and not holler and roll around on the floor and bark like a dog and many other host of things that "Holy Rollers" claim is proof of their "being in the Spirit".


Claudia

[ July 02, 2004, 04:09 AM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]

 

[Claudia_T]

Matthew 7:21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity(SIN).

 

[D28guy]

SMM,

"D28...

Question: Which of the two sisters exhibited more faith when Jesus actually came on the scene, though?

I am of the opinion that Martha actually had a closer relationship to Jesus than Mary.

Why? because she was confident enough of that relationship to 'Work'. (Some might say Mary was clingy.)

And, she remained confident enough to speak her mind when Jesus arrived on the scene after Lazarus died...

She confessed and knew Jesus was the Resurrection and the Life...

What she wasn't expecting was a "Today Miracle". Though she obviously had faith for one."

I wasnt trying to say that either one was in a better position. I was only bringing up the fact that there is a place for everything. There is a place for "doing", there is a place for sitting at His feet and letting the world spin without us for a while. God has lots of born again people, all over this earth. Millions of us. When its time to sit and bask in Gods goodness, God will manage without us for that time. When God moves us out into the "battlefield" again, we will be recharged and that much more effective.

There were times when Jesus turned His back on this world, and He went off for a while to pray. He knew full well that there were still sick people that needed healing, lost people who needed to hear of His salvation, and multitudes of other opportunities for ministry. But he knew that there is a time for "this", and a time for "that".

"One thing is needed...

Mary has chosen that better part...

Is that for everyone?..."

I believe that is for everyone, yes...for a season. There is a time to work, there is a time to rest. There is a time to minister...there is a time to sit and recieve from God. I believe that any christian who does not from time to time turn their back on this world to be alone with, and hear from, their Father, is a christian headed for burnout.

"All the time? Consider the context of Jewish custom and the requirements expected of a host or hostess in this case..."

No, not for "all the time". I never said for all the time. But for certain times.

The "all the time" idea seemed to come from Briguy, who responded to someone elses desire to employ the gift of tongues at times in their prayer life. He said something to the effect that "Wouldnt it be more profitable to be out ministering to the hurting, feeding the poor, etc."

But the other person didnt say anything about *doing nothing* except sitting around speaking in tongues for 16 waking hours a day, to the neglect of ministering. Briguy seemed to be saying that to simply employ that gift at times was wrong because that would be 10 minutes that could have gone towards feeding the poor.

Nobody is saying that we want to ignore the poor to speak in tongues...only that speaking in tongues is entirely good, proper, and edifying...and a "recharged" christian is a more effective christian in ministry.

Briguy...please dont take my comments in this post as my "coming down" on you, brother. I sense that your attitude is fine, and you are not some mean spirited "anti-tongue talker"

God bless,

Mike

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

D28... Seemed like a good and measured response to me.

I also said this, which wasn't addressed?

Briguy's point is well taken. But, I believe he'd be the first to admit his total knowledge of Pentecostal Practices may be a bit incomplete?

But, don't you think it's sad that for all our 'bragging' about Pentecostal Power that another group of believers would be *able* to have the notion that all 'we' do is sit around in prayer meeting talking in tongues?

Somehow I get the impression that our testimony in practice doesn't match our testimony in words...

Understand when I point a single finger away from me... I am, in fact, pointing another three at myself...

 

[Briguy]

Carol, I don't pretend to "understand" what your version of "praying in the Spirit is". You talk about Tongues and then quote a verse that says the Spirit gives groanings which CANNOT be uttered. If anything this speaks of being quiet in prayer and having a heart that cries out. Now if you are saying while "praying in the Spirit" you are quiet for a time and let your heart cry out and then speak in tongues for a while, and back and forth, that would make a little more sense. Carol, the Spirit IS God and therefore God isn't praying to God, it is a verse saying that a merciful God brings to our heart the things we should pray for and then we know the things we should act on. It is about prayer leading to action, not just prayer. Anyway, I think you are a good person too. We see alot of verses different but I believe we love the same God.

With Martha and Mary. I believe Jesus was referring to the fact that He was not gong to be around a whole lot longer to teach them personally so it was a "better way" to sit and spend time with Him. It is a good reminder that we all need to spend time with Jesus. We spend time in prayer, in Bible reading, at church, and by loving others. They all work together. Mary's way was better at that time because jesus was with them in person. This relates to the other Mary who poured the perfume and what Jesus said to her.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

If I may?

I agree that God the Spirit doesn't pray to God the Father in God the Son's Name.

Groanings and Utterings...

I have always understood them to be the ability of the Spirit to Communicate a part the depth of God's Feeling on a matter to the human spirit allowing a person to pray effectively with both Faith and Feeling.

The "helping" is giving us the 'heart' to really pray... To be so overcome with God's Emotions (if you will) that one is no longer able to speak...

In the old days there were tear stained prayer room carpets in non-tongue-talking Baptist churches as there were in Penetecostal churches...

The *previous* generation, Pentecostal or not, seemed both willing and able to *intercede* under the 'Unction' and 'Anointing' of God's Spirit.

Such prayer seems to be a lost "art". Not enough time... Too exhausting... Too embarrassing if I am caught knees and face to the floor crying out to God in a loud voice...

But, oh... Revivals came... Lives transformed...

Is our propriety and image so important? That we neglect so great a salvation for others?

Sorry, I seem to be really getting a burden about my own lack of action... Please don't take this personally...

(Unless the Holy Spirit pricks your own heart as He has mine.

)

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:


You can hoop and holler and hop around and shout "glory and praise the Lord" and do the gibberish all you want but it means NOTHING to God. He wants you to glorify Him by a complete surrender to His will in all things... a healing of all spiritual diseases.

Claudia

Hi Claudia! What do you think about all of the 120 on the Day of Pentecost? They were mocked and accused of being full of new wine!

Hey, they just received the "Baptism of the Holy Ghost/Spirit"........don't you think that you would hoop, holler, shout, and speak in tongues, like the 120 if God should happen to fill you with His Spirit? Think about it!

I believe that worship means 'EVERYTHING' to God!

Claudia, not nice to make fun of God's people or the evidence of His Spirit.

MEE

 

[D28guy]

SMM,

"I also said this, which wasn't addressed?
quote:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"Briguy's point is well taken. But, I believe he'd be the first to admit his total knowledge of Pentecostal Practices may be a bit incomplete?

But, don't you think it's sad that for all our 'bragging' about Pentecostal Power that another group of believers would be *able* to have the notion that all 'we' do is sit around in prayer meeting talking in tongues?

Somehow I get the impression that our testimony in practice doesn't match our testimony in words..."

</font>[/QUOTE]People do come to that conclusion sometimes, but I think it is usually because of some already present bias against "pentecostals" or "charismatics", rather than because of any real lack in the area of benevolence by the pentecostals or charismatics.

My experience has been that we in the pentecostal-charismatic camp are just as much into ministering to the needy, hungry, homeless, etc, as any other denomination or church.

Sometimes it might not be as widespread, because we have a higher percentage of "independant" fellowships then many other evangelical groups might. A small independant fellowship cannot give out as many clothes in a 24 hour period as the entire Southern Baptist denomination...as one example...but God doesnt expect them to.

Based on what Christ said about the widows mite, the small independant church that gives away 25 pairs of pants, 15 shirts, 17 jackets and 19 gallons of bean soup with cornbread is as dear to His heart as the Baptists who give away 50,000 times that much through a co-operative program.

We do have our co-operative programs...the Assemblies of God as an example...but probably not as many as some other evangelical groups.

God bless,

Mike

 

[tamborine lady]

;type:

It is really sad to think that some people don't have fun at church. You go there to worship the God of the universe. The most inportant one in all the world.

I get excited when I get together with a bunch of other christians and start to praise the Lord.

Don't get me wrong, we have serious times too, and reverant and songs to adore Him.

But God is not nervous about praise, and I can't see why people should be.

Anyway, I'm not trying to start trouble, just giving MOHO.

Peace,

Tam

 

[music4Him]

Hummmmm..... Don't know how the tread got off on Pentacostal/Charismatic and on lively worship?

But when I get into the presence of God during worship, I get a little excited too.

Originally posted by Briguy:
I really believe in my heart that God can heal. I know people who had diseases and were cured, through prayer, doctors, etc... Here is the thing though. I have never heard of a person growing a new arm or leg after an amputation. I have never heard of a person, missing an eye, growing a new one. I have never heard of prayer for a "downs syndrome" person healing them from that disease and making them not "downs" anymore.
Generally the healings we hear about and see are internal and not external. If I am honest with myself I must admit that this bothers me. I can pretend it doesn't, but it does. My God is capable of anything but yet there are those things it seems He does not do, in relation to healing people that is. My question is:

Does this bother anyone else? or at least confuse anyone in some way? or maybe I am just on my own island with this. I would like to know your thoughts. I am not sure if I want answers or encouragement but I do know that this is on my mind and heart quite often. Thanks in advance for your answers. (I brought this up in the middle of a different thread once but wanted everyone to have an opportunity to give their thoughts)

In Christ,
Brian

Although I haven't seen a amputated leg restored I have seen the evidence of a leg that was shortened by scholiosis(sp?)(curviture of the spine) brought back to its length and their witness was real because it was my sister this happened too. So I was aware of the medical situation. Also those that were there that prayed said they saw it literally grow/lengthen out to normal. With that testimony said think about the passage in scripture (I believe someone has already brough this up) Matt.9:27-31~
27 And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou Son of David, have mercy on us. 28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord. 29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you. 30 And their eyes were opened; and Jesus straitly charged them, saying, See that no man know it. 31 But they, when they were departed, spread abroad his fame in all that country.

I looked up the word "faith" in the concordance you might find it inrteresting if you do the same. I think sometimes how hard it is for us to look at insurmountable odds aginst us sometimes, but then to call those things that arn't as though they are? First I think we ought to put our trust in Jesus because Jesus asked the blind men "do believe I'm able to do this?" then Jesus said "according to your faith be it unto you".

Now thinking about an limb that was amputated remember the man with the withered hand....ask yourself this question? Was it amputated or just dried up? Luke 6:6-11 ~
6 And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered. 7 And the scribes and Pharisees watched him, whether he would heal on the sabbath day; that they might find an accusation against him. 8 But he knew their thoughts, and said to the man which had the withered hand, Rise up, and stand forth in the midst. And he arose and stood forth. 9 Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it? 10 And looking round about upon them all, he said unto the man, Stretch forth thy hand. And he did so: and his hand was restored whole as the other. 11 And they were filled with madness; and communed one with another what they might do to Jesus.(this story can also be found in Matt. 12:9-14 & Mark 3:1-6)
I chose Luke since he was a physician and it says it was withered. The hand was there and not cut off but withered. So my way of thinking is there is still a chance for it to come back.

BTW, A little off the subject here, but several years back I vaguely remember seeing a genetic/DNA study where they were growing ears/body parts in a petri dish,or on mice... or something...does anyone else remember this story? I thought is was on somehing like 60minuets or one of those type shows? Would an ear be concidered a limb? And if men can create this in a lab (if it can be proven that this study really did happen) then how much easier is it for God heal and restore us?

Music4Him

 

[D28guy]

At our fellowship we definetly let people "get happy" if they want to!

Mike

 

[tamborine lady]

Music,

We got off on lively worship because the churches that have "signs following" (ie healings etc) usually have a lively service because they love God and get excited in His presence!!

The Bible says come boldly to the throne of grace!!
------------------------------
I have not seen any legs grown out or blind eyes healed either, but I know it can happen anytime God is ready. PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME.

Working for Jesus,

Tam

 

[music4Him]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

Music,

We got off on lively worship because the churches that have "signs following" (ie healings etc) usually have a lively service because they love God and get excited in His presence!!

The Bible says come boldly to the throne of grace!!
------------------------------

Like the one Samaritan leper who Jesus healed... (out of the ten) that got excited?
Luke 17:14-16 ~ And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed. 15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God, 16 And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.

 

[atestring]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
As far as "Healings" goes, one thing I have noticed throughout the years as a Christian is that it seems many who are in the "tongues" movement and into "Healing" are all caught up in external physical healing as "miracles" and "signs" of their connection with God.

But the truth is that Jesus came to "save His people from their sins" ... not just by forgiveness of those sins but by healing spiritual sickness and the disease of sin.

Many Christians want all the benefits but do not want to have to really give up sin. If Jesus is truly allowed to be their "Healer" He will be allowed to heal them of every sin and spiritual disease in their lives.

It's relatively easy to claim God is with us because of some outer "miracle"... but you know, Satan does miracles too. The real proof God is with you is that you allow His Spirit to live within and root out all sin and everything that goes against His Word.

You can hoop and holler and hop around and shout "glory and praise the Lord" and do the gibberish all you want but it means NOTHING to God. He wants you to glorify Him by a complete surrender to His will in all things... a healing of all spiritual diseases.

Satan leads so many to deceptions which have to do with outer "signs" and "miracles" and physical healings, especially as time on earth is nearing it's end.


1 Cor 13:1: Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

What IS love?
Romans 13:8-10
"Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

Love is keeping God's Law, His Commandments. And the Bible says if we claim to speak in tongues but dont have love, then this is useless.

Isaiah 8:19: And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
20: To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Many claim to have "The Spirit" but if this so-called spirit leads them to claim they can do away with God's Law, be afraid of them. And if this possession of the "spirit" leads them to put more emphasis on "healing" and speaking in tongues" to the disregard of getting rid of sin in their lives... be wary of them.

There is a reason why God's Spirit is called the HOLY Spirit. If The Spirit of God is in us we will as a result live holy lives and not holler and roll around on the floor and bark like a dog and many other host of things that "Holy Rollers" claim is proof of their "being in the Spirit".


Claudia

Please give me concrete evidence that any Church has had anyone bark like a dog. Were you there at a church when this happened? Do you buy into hearsay on this matter?
If you were there and you heard the sound of a dog how do you know it was not a dog?
This is an exagerration. This accusation was made of the Toronto Blessing and I have read documented evidence that nobody has ever heard anyone barking like a dog.
Why do you use derogratory terms like "holy Roller"?

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by atestring:


Please give me concrete evidence that any Church has had anyone bark like a dog. Were you there at a church when this happened? Do you buy into hearsay on this matter?
If you were there and you heard the sound of a dog how do you know it was not a dog?
This is an exagerration. This accusation was made of the Toronto Blessing and I have read documented evidence that nobody has ever heard anyone barking like a dog.
Why do you use derogratory terms like "holy Roller"?

atestring, I don't know what you do for a living, but you would make a good lawyer!

MEE

 

[Marcia]

Some of the extreme manifestations have of the Toronto Blessing did have people on the floor, unable to get up, or writhing around. One of the fruits of the HS is self-control (see Gal 3). This behavior is not from the HS - it is demeaning and repulsive.

The Toronto Blessing and Brownsville Revival have much in common.

Here are some links on this:
http://www.banner.org.uk/tb/toronto.html

http://www.cephasministry.com/index_toronto_revival.html

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Claudia

But the truth is that Jesus came to "save His people from their sins" ... not just by forgiveness of those sins but by healing spiritual sickness and the disease of sin.

Many Christians want all the benefits but do not want to have to really give up sin. If Jesus is truly allowed to be their "Healer" He will be allowed to heal them of every sin and spiritual disease in their lives.

Excellent Points...

And, yes, I have heard from reliable sources that 'dog barking' did happen at either or both of the above mentioned revivals...

I am in agreement that it doesn't sound like the Holy Spirit *I* am filled with!

Honestly, it sounds more like a manifestation of demonic possession, from the descriptions and reports...

And, the horror is... no one could tell the difference and offer *true* deliverance...

I heard the Brownsville 'leader' speak and he definitely did not impress me... Not in my mind or my spirit... (notice the lack of 'pastor' and 'preach' in the above.

)