Health Care for America Now

[Pastor Larry]

First of all, shame on you "pastor" for suggesting l am lying.

What else is it when you say something that is demonstrably untrue and can be proven to be untrue from multiple places? If you overlooked it, you didn't do it only one time. You did it multiple times.

I frequently get called a "liar" in response to my scriptural arguments.

This may be true. I don't know. All I know is that here you haven't even sniffed a scriptural argument yet.

Is this because the accuser miraculously see into my mind and determines that I am lying? Or is it because their point cannot be sustained scripturally and they hope their point will win out by attacking my character. Let the reader familiar with my posts decide.

My familiarity with your posts (which admittedly is limited to the little bit in this thread) is that your posts can be demonstrated to be inconsistent with reality of revelation, and when you are confronted with the truth, you don't change, leaving us to conclude that you are willfully involved in continuing to say things that are untrue.

This text is entirely consistent with what I have been saying all along.

there's a lot that is consistent with what you have said. That's not the point.

Salvation by faith is the result of the gospel, not its fundamental content.

Here you are again denying what the text says.

And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power

When does this happen? At the resurrection of course.

Did you read the text? Immediately following this you ahve the transfiguration. That is clearly what is being talked about.

The kingdom is here now!. Let's contrast that with the patronizing words of one who apparently disagrees with Jesus:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Larry
Think before you speak. That may help you to make sense. Jesus is teaching his disciples to pray for his reign to come on earth. That is the same thing we should be doing. But it will come when he returns

Disagree with Jesus? I could quote lots of Scripture to show that the NT record plainly declares that the kingdom is future. Consider 2 tim 4:2 where Paul says, "I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:" Notice how the kingdom comes at his appearing, and this is after the resurrection. if the kingdom came at the resurrection, then this verse makes no sense. Consider Acts 3:19-21, where the kingdom is plainly declared to be future. Peter did not agree with you, and he was inspired by God. So I think on this one we must reject your view and favor the Bible's.


Again, I repeat, if the kingdom is here now then the Bible is inaccurate. The kingdom that the Bible describes is very different than what we see now. I prefer to believe God on this one.

You continue to refuse to deal with Scripture properly. You have decided what you want to believe and don't seem to care what the Bible actually says about it. That's unfortunate. It distorts the gospel and the ministry God has called us to.

Again, feel free to make arguments for universal health care. But do not tie the gospel to it because Jesus didn't. Quit playing political games with the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I remind you that Jesus didn't believe in universal health care. There were many people whom he did not heal. Not one time did Jesus ever lead his followers to believe that universal health care was a part of the gospel or a derivation from it. And now, 2000 years later, you should not try to change that.

 

[carpro]

Who made it the way it is ?

Government, for the most part.

 

[Andre]

Quit playing political games with the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Let the Scriptures speak as to whether the Kingdom of God is here and should inform how we run our societies, that is whether it is political:

These men who have caused trouble all over the world have now come here, 7and Jason has welcomed them into his house. They are all defying Caesar's decrees, saying that there is another king, one called Jesus

What do kings do? They govern. Do they govern your interior personal life and have no interest in the ordering of society? Of course not.

Has the kingdom of God arrived yet?

1After this, Jesus traveled about from one town and village to another, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God. The Twelve were with him,

If Pastor Larry is correct, the kingdom that is being proclaimed is "on hold" for a few thousand years (or is being announced only to be soon taken away).

2and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick

Is it at all sensible that Jesus sends men out to proclaim a kingdom that lies thousands of years in the future?

I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God."

Boy, there must be some rather elderly types walking around if the following statement is correct:

Again, I repeat, if the kingdom is here now then the Bible is inaccurate

Or, perhaps the kingdom was there 2000 years ago and has been repealed only to reappear in the future. And when Jesus said "all authority on earth has been given to me", somebody took the wording down incorrectly.

Jesus says that some standing in his presence will see the Kingdom of God before they die. This absolutely rules out the possibilty that the Kingdom of God has not yet made its appearance.

The only way out of this is to say that the kingdom entered history at the time of Jesus and then was withdrawn and will only re-appear in the future. There would be some hope to this view, except that Paul preached a replacement King for Caesar. And Jesus claimed all authority on earth has already been given to Him. Should he have added "only in a few seconds after I go up to heaven that authority is to be repealed?"

Pastor Larry will have us believe that such authority does not cover the way we order and structure our societies. You are free to judge how plausible that is.

These scriptures cannot be overlooked. The kingdom is here or Jesus and the other writiers of scripture are mistaken. There are indeed texts that talk of the kingdom as a future thing. We have to take both sets of texts seriously.

The Kingdom of God indeed has a mysterious "here and yet future" character. But to say it is not here is to deny the plain teaching of many scriptures. Perhaps you want to go there. I'll stick with the authority of the scriptures and try to make sense of the mystery.

 

[carpro]

Socialized medicine at work..........



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ied-drugs-which-could-extend-their-lives.html

Tens of thousands of cancer victims denied drugs which could extend their lives

By Laura Donnelly, Health Correspondent
Last Updated: 12:10AM BST 13/07/2008

More than 120,000 cancer victims die early every year after being denied drugs that could have extended their lives, leading doctors are warning.

 

[Revmitchell]

"But another oncologist, Prof Jonathan Waxman, of Imperial College Hospital, said allowing patients to buy drugs was not the answer to the crisis in funding. Instead, he said, the NHS should abolish the huge bureaucracy with 150 primary care trusts deciding which drugs should be funded, and leave decisions to individual doctors. "I have gone to meetings to decide whether a patient will get a drug or not and there are two medical doctors there and 40 health economists weighing up the odds. They call it local autonomy – for the patients being denied drugs it is more like local tyranny."

So.......Why is this better?

 

[windcatcher]

Socialized medicine at work..........



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ied-drugs-which-could-extend-their-lives.html

Tens of thousands of cancer victims denied drugs which could extend their lives

By Laura Donnelly, Health Correspondent
Last Updated: 12:10AM BST 13/07/2008

More than 120,000 cancer victims die early every year after being denied drugs that could have extended their lives, leading doctors are warning.

Hmmm! Slightly more than 60 million people and the UK will not cover the medication needs of about 82thousand cancer patients.

Estimates show that fewer than 5 per cent are receiving the drugs, with many of those who get them paying privately.

Today I heard that in Canada the wait for kidney transplant is 7 years.

People, these are some of the castastrophic health concerns which place such demands on all systems..... whether they be public or private care!

Under socialized medicine.... if the system fails to meet the needs or if the system decides that certain people 'are too far gone to justify the expense of care' then it would take an act of congress......literally, to change it. And when there's a minority of persons with high demans.... its not hard to persuade others, who's demand are less but who are having to pay for those with high needs, to position themselves against higher taxes to meet the minority needs.

Even in a democratic society such as the UK functioning with socialized medicine, there is no gurantee of justice and equality in health care. In some of the European countries where health care is considered more complete, euthanasia is practiced....either overtly or covertly, for the elderly and physically frail, and possibly the very young who have catastrophic defects or challenges requiring agressive care to survive.

While generally its considered by Americans and by the world that we don't have socialized medicine.... in a way we do: Career military retired and disabled vets get care which is closest to 'care by the state'. Certain medications are covered and dispensed: Others may be optional and out of pocket..... or have a co-pay. Some medical procedures are covered, others are not or have limited availability, unless one is willing and able to travel, pay differences, or cover out of pocket.

There are some in our country who are not military and do not get military care, but have mental or physical disabilities and limitations on income. Medicare eligible is run by the government and provides medical benefits to those drawing social security or disability. Medicaid is a state run program to meet the needs of children, individuals and families who are income/criteria eligable.

Medical care in the private sector has various forms of coverage which competes for the private dollar and also for the corporate sponsor. Their competition is in quality of product.... the extent of coverage, their rsponsiveness to payees, their ability to negotiate with health-care providers for reductions and discounts, their attractiveness to the insured that its appropriate for his needs, and, in some cases, the groups and specialities of doctors they are able to attract to their plan....sometimes to the exclusions of other insurances and providers.

The programs in our country are designed to encourage those who can afford insurance to work and maintain it. For those who can't afford insurance or can't find work where insurance is provided, some options do exist. In the public medicaid program there are some 'reimbursement requirements' built into the provisions to discourage people from hiding assets to add to the public burden by their use/abuse.

In my locality the county health department offers general services, prenatal screening and counseling, vaccinations, child health screenings, some health screenings required for certain types of work such as health care workers and food industry, and specialty clinics. The medical facilities and group practices participate in health 'fairs' ......occurring at about the rate of 4 per year, for screening, referral, and counseling regarding diet and general health issues, free and open to all. (Some fairs do charge nominal fees for labs like cholesterol check or metabolic profile......usually about $8: but blood pressure, glucose, blood typing, hemoglobin, sometimes respiratory volume, bone density, skin screening, wellness counseling is all free.)

Often times, when others look at the 'health care crisis' in my country, they omit or don't know how to look through the whole picture and see how well it really does work. As with any human endeavor, there are cracks in the system, but one must remember 'its the squeaky wheel that gets the grease.' It's those who feel they have been slighted, or whose circumstances were or are unfortunate enough to place them in the position of feeling helpless, who expose and express some real concerns...... and some of those exaggerate.

 

[Andre]

Was the kingdom of God initiated by the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus? The scriptures clearly teach that it was and I will shortly heap even more evidence on the already impressive pile. If the Kingdom has been initiated, and since we all agree Jesus is King, and since Jesus preached extensively on what the Kingdom of God "looks like" (the parables are all about such things), how come we stubbornly say "no, it only comes in the future, so we'll wait before we implement the Kingdom with all the self-sacrifice this entails".

This has everything to do with universal health care - an implementation of the Kingdom of God value presented not least in the "least of these" teaching and the 99 sheep teaching. Interestingly, people collapse the latter parable down into purely abstract "spiritual" terms, as if it was only about "saving people". However, the New Testament focus is not on "going to heaven when you die", although that is indeed part of it.

The New Testament is about God reclaiming his creation and all that is in it. It is about God finally becoming King - the word Christ means "king".

Now for more evidence that the Kingdom is already here:

In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea 2and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." 3This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah:
"A voice of one calling in the desert,
'Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.' "

The gospel writer is quoting from Isaiah 40. Now let's see what this passage has to say:

A voice of one calling:
"In the desert prepare
the way for the LORD [a] ;
make straight in the wilderness
a highway for our God. [b]

4 Every valley shall be raised up,
every mountain and hill made low;
the rough ground shall become level,
the rugged places a plain.
5 And the glory of the LORD will be revealed,
and all mankind together will see it.
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken."
6 A voice says, "Cry out."
And I said, "What shall I cry?"
"All men are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field.
7 The grass withers and the flowers fall,
because the breath of the LORD blows on them.
Surely the people are grass.
8 The grass withers and the flowers fall,
but the word of our God stands forever."
9 You who bring good tidings to Zion,
go up on a high mountain.
You who bring good tidings to Jerusalem, [c]
lift up your voice with a shout,
lift it up, do not be afraid;
say to the towns of Judah,
"Here is your God!" 10 See, the Sovereign LORD comes with power,
and his arm rules for him.


The gospel writer is not dumb. When he quotes the Isaiah 40:3 proclamation, do you not think he knows about the stuff in verses 9 and 10 which talk of a returning King?

If those who deny the present reality of the Kingdom are right, poor old Matthew should spring forth from the grave and amend his text to something like this:

In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea 2and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is thousands of years in the future." 3This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah:
"A voice of one calling in the desert,
'Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him,' "

But, dear reader of my gospel, please ignore the part about the returning King who will rule as per Isaiah 40. My intent was to extract only verse 3 even though in Isaiah the announcement of kingship is part of the very thing the one in the desert is calling out about. Sorry about the confusion.

 

[Revmitchell]

and I will shortly heap even more evidence on the already impressive pile.

:laugh: :BangHead:

 

[Andre]

More on the fact that Jesus is already King:

From Acts 4:

On their release, Peter and John went back to their own people and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. "Sovereign Lord," they said, "you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. 25You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David:
" 'Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
26The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the Lord
and against his Anointed One

Note that the prayer quotes Psalm 2, verses 1 and 2:

Why do the nations conspire
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the LORD and against his Anointed One.

And what does Psalm 2 go on to say a few breaths later in respect to this "annointed one"?:

I have installed my King
on Zion, my holy hill

The scriptures are clear and consistent. Even though (obviously) we do not have Jesus with us in person, his Kingship has been established. So what does that mean for us?

It means that we work to implement the kingdom of God values He taught so much about, and we do not exclude "the public" domain from the authority of His Kingship.

 

[Andre]

:laugh: :BangHead:

Please do not hurt your head too hard as you bang it against that brick wall known as the Scriptures......

 

[Revmitchell]

Please do not hurt your head too hard as you bang it against that brick wall known as the Scriptures......

What you have presented is a pile of scripture misinterpreted by N.T. Wright. What you will not find in all of scripture is Jesus nore Paul nore Peter implementing this junk. You preach another gospel. And you will answer for it unless you repent.

As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Galatians 1:9

 

[Andre]

What you have presented is a pile of scripture misinterpreted by N.T. Wright. What you will not find in all of scripture is Jesus nore Paul nore Peter implementing this junk. You preach another gospel. And you will answer for it unless you repent.

How about offering actual counter-arguments instead of veiled threats of judgement? Tell me and the other readers where I (and indirectly NT Wright in many, but not all cases) have erred in interpreting the Scriptures.

What is your Biblical case? Is Jesus not King now? Did He not describe what the Kingdom values are? Are we not to advocate for the implementation of those values in all aspects of human society? Was Jesus only given some authority on earth?

You are (apparently) a trained minister. I am a software engineer. Surely you can engage the issue with the Scriptures?

 

[donnA]

I don't want the goverment deciding what doctor I go to, which health care I should or should not recieve, if I need medications or not. The only thing this could be is worse then HMOs

 

[Crabtownboy]

I don't want the goverment deciding what doctor I go to, which health care I should or should not recieve, if I need medications or not. The only thing this could be is worse then HMOs

Live long enough and much of what you say you do not want you will have ... it is called Medicare.

 

[Revmitchell]

How about offering actual counter-arguments instead of veiled threats of judgement? Tell me and the other readers where I (and indirectly NT Wright in many, but not all cases) have erred in interpreting the Scriptures.

What is your Biblical case? Is Jesus not King now? Did He not describe what the Kingdom values are? Are we not to advocate for the implementation of those values in all aspects of human society? Was Jesus only given some authority on earth?

You are (apparently) a trained minister. I am a software engineer. Surely you can engage the issue with the Scriptures?

Veiled? What was it about what I said that was not blunt? Scripture is clear about those who preach another gospel as you do.

No use in including other readers in your mess. You are out there all by yourself with your unorthodox and unscriptural interpretations.PL and I have been the only ones with any amount of energy to engage you on your heresy.

 

[Andre]

Veiled? What was it about what I said that was not blunt? Scripture is clear about those who preach another gospel as you do.

No use in including other readers in your mess. You are out there all by yourself with your unorthodox and unscriptural interpretations.PL and I have been the only ones with any amount of energy to engage you on your heresy.

Isn't this interesting. You claim my arguments are heresy and yet you will neither substantially engage and critique them nor will you provide Biblical arguments to support your position.

What do you think the reader will conclude?

 

[donnA]

Live long enough and much of what you say you do not want you will have ... it is called Medicare.

but,,, the goverment does not run all health care, so this can not be the same.

 

[Revmitchell]

Isn't this interesting. You claim my arguments are heresy and yet you will neither substantially engage and critique them nor will you provide Biblical arguments to support your position.

What do you think the reader will conclude?

You and I have already been round and round. PL has also shown you your error. Yet you continue on with your alternate gospel and "Christian Communism". You don't want to be engaged you want to be right. Have at it. It is a good thing there are very few people who even know about this heresy.

 

[Andre]

Note this from John 18:

Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?"

34"Is that your own idea," Jesus asked, "or did others talk to you about me?"
35"Am I a Jew?" Pilate replied. "It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?" 36Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

I am kind of surprised this text has not been raised (perhaps it has and I missed it) as a counterargument to my take that Jesus is presently King. In verse 36, Jesus seems to be saying "My kingdom has nothing to do with earthly kingdoms, so there is no 'political' dimension to my kingdom".

As it turns out, there is a huge translation issue here. Here is the rendering of verse 36 as per the NET Bible:

Jesus replied, “My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my servants would be fighting to keep me from being 1 handed over 2 to the Jewish authorities. 3 But as it is, 4 my kingdom is not from here

The NET version is, my sources indicate, true to the original Greek.

Jesus is a King. Jesus' kingdom, while not from this world, is rather clearly for this world.

 

[Crabtownboy]

but,,, the goverment does not run all health care, so this can not be the same.

Until the law is changed you will, at age 65, have no choice but to go onto Medicare. If you can you will want to also buy a Medi-gap insurance to help you pay for your medical bills. There is no other choice and it is government run. And our wonderful current administration and former Republican majority Congress really did a job on us with their Medicare part D.

I am not arguing with you, simply telling you how it will be when you turn 65 ... unless the law is changed. Not surprisingly Congress exempted its self from Medicare and Medicare part D. If you really want good health insurance get yourself elected to Congress.