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Heard the most interesting calvinist statement
- Thread starter Don
- Start date
I will try to keep it short Don.
Without spending to much ground work on election.....
Romans 8
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. "
Ephesians 1
"even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, "
We need regeneration before we can do good, before we can do anything pleasing to God. No one seeks God without being called.
Romans 3
as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
John 6
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. "
After God has called you, after he draws you near, at that moment you use your will. God has given you a new heart. A heart that will chose him. Per scripture, you have to believe.
Ephesians 3
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God"
Romans 10
"because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
So yes, even Calvinist believe you must make a decision. They also believe if you are called, and regenerated. You will choose Christ as you Lord and Savior. This is not a response to the outward call of man. It is a response from the inward call. No one comes to Christ unless the Father draws him.
Without spending to much ground work on election.....
Romans 8
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. "
Ephesians 1
"even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, "
We need regeneration before we can do good, before we can do anything pleasing to God. No one seeks God without being called.
Romans 3
as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
John 6
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. "
After God has called you, after he draws you near, at that moment you use your will. God has given you a new heart. A heart that will chose him. Per scripture, you have to believe.
Ephesians 3
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God"
Romans 10
"because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
So yes, even Calvinist believe you must make a decision. They also believe if you are called, and regenerated. You will choose Christ as you Lord and Savior. This is not a response to the outward call of man. It is a response from the inward call. No one comes to Christ unless the Father draws him.
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Actually, please allow me to ask a follow-on question: The individual who made the statement was a pastoral candidate. The question was: Please give us your thoughts about the calvinistic leanings in the 2000 SBC statement of faith, and some of the teachings at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.
The answer received was as I posted above. How would you consider such an answer in light of an interview for a pastor?
The answer received was as I posted above. How would you consider such an answer in light of an interview for a pastor?
The answer, while truthful is vague.
I assume you are reffering to SBC 2000BFM statements like this.....
"Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace."
"Election is the gracious purpose of God, according to which He regenerates, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies sinners. It is consistent with the free agency of man, and comprehends all the means in connection with the end. It is the glorious display of God's sovereign goodness, and is infinitely wise, holy, and unchangeable. It excludes boasting and promotes humility."
The answer he gave is a little vague to judge his view of election. The Bible contains "predestined". It says we are predestined. But what is predestination to him. A lot of people hold to a belief similar to this(I do not). "God uses his foreknowledge, to look through time. He sees who will respond to him. Those are the ones he has chosen(predestined) to be conformed to the image of his son. It was only after foresight, that he predestined through redemptive plan, to save that person and bring about glorification ."
You are probably better served by asking follow up questions to this candidate. His statement alone would not make him a Calvinist. For a more specific answer, asking him his view on the SBC statement on election or regeneration. Your initial question was a little vague and allowed for the vague answer you got.
*maybe even more important is to ask how aggressive he believes the church should be in evangelism. Find out how important sharing the word to him is. The "big fear" of Calvinism is that they are anti-evangelism. If you are look yo implement or maintain a strong evangelistic church, make sure he believes in it. Whether Calvinist or not, it shouldn't effect the evangelism of the church.
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Ann do you believe God withholds the offer of salvation from some people to never let them have an opportunity to receive salvation.
Depends on the context and attitude. Was it one question in a list requiring brief answers or was it a central question of doctrine that he tried to straddle the fence on? Or perhaps was it a lack of holding a firm conviction on the issue?
The following comment of course has a built in detonator... but one of the "hopes" I have for our present society and culture is an apparent resurgence of the doctrines of grace within the evangelical "church". Most of the major revivals over the past few hundred years that I am aware of have been prompted by a similar shift. Deep, effective, lasting revival only happens when it is "all about God" and His glory and specifically not about man... or even man's salvation.
Not Ann... but no. I believe that either through some contact with the gospel or through nature as indicated in Romans 1... all unbelievers are without excuse. That would include the "excuse" that God never gave them a chance.
The question I believe is sort of the counter of that one. Accepting that God offers salvation to all, do any possess the "goodness" in their natural "dead" state to independently choose salvation without being regenerated?
This answer is unclear to me. However, the "without excuse" means God has revealed Himself to all and all have the opportunity to come to Him.
No scripture says we must first be regenerated before we are saved. If you are regenerated you are also saved.
What interesting about Calvinism is that it must have regeneration/living water happening before belief or else it totally fails. Problem is, nowhere is this position found in the Scriptures. In fact, Scripture makes it perfectly clear that the living water was not given until after Jesus Christ was glorified. Can't wiggle around it. If one is to be true to the Scripture, Calvinism dies on this one issue alone. But those adhering to the man-made doctrine of Calvinism refuse to acknowledge the clear teaching of Scripture on this point.
I have always been saved....given before the foundations of the world. The holy spirit merely regenerates......and to others, he does not. They are left to their own devices.
You are deceiving yourself. You have not always been saved. Was Lydia always saved in Acts 16? Were the 5,000 always saved in Acts 4:4?
The elect were chosen before the foundation of the world --not saved.
Merely? You have flunked Bible 101. Please tell us that the Scriptures teach more about the work of the Holy Spirit.
Do not minimize the Holy Spirit's operations.
Agree but Romans 1 in combination with experience and other scriptures answer the question. All "opportunities" do not involve a direct presentation of the Gospel.
I think "first" as in a timeline is a critical but common mistake. It constrains God to our sense of time. What scripture does say is that man is dead in his trespasses and sins... he is already condemned. He is the enemy of God.
Dead is an interesting word that in every other context you or anyone else would use it... conveys separation AND inability. The Spirit quickens the dead spirits of men... is there a scripture anywhere that comes close to suggesting that he needs their help? Is not "life" prerequisite for action or thought? Not prerequisite necessarily in a chronological sense but more in a positional sense.
True. But in no way does that imply much less necessitate that man make a "good" decision in order to be regenerated.
LOL....THERE YA GO....believing in a process of salvation again ......silly Calvinist....tricks are for kids. If my God deems me one of his own. Then I am, from the beginning and its just child's play to revive me from the sins of man. Take your school and shove it, take your presious Calvin and put it there also.
No. Not at all. You have superimposed this.
Nowhere in scripture will you find that salvation is the product of man's good will. But that IS necessary if you reject the doctrines of grace.
That is a stretch. You're trying to establish a doctrine on a historical record pretty much by itself.
No need to wiggle around to establish the doctrines of grace. The wiggling is necessary for those who attempt to add man's "good" decision to the grace of God.
:laugh: and so they why oh why don't they understand that? Perhaps they just cannot wrap their arms around sola gracia....or is it their Pelagian minds that have to add flesh to the work of God. I see it as pure rebellion.