Heard the most interesting calvinist statement

[Scott J]

I have no idea what you mean by that.

I think "first" as in a timeline is a critical but common mistake. It constrains God to our sense of time. What scripture does say is that man is dead in his trespasses and sins... he is already condemned. He is the enemy of God.

Dead is an interesting word that in every other context you or anyone else would use it... conveys separation AND inability.

Not trying to be rude here but this is mental gymnastics.

No. Not in the slightest. Do you suggest that God is governed or constrained by the "time" He created? I think some who profess Calvinism err here as do pretty much all who oppose it.

Romans 8 tells us that God "foreknew" the elect. That word does not mean he knew ahead of time what one would say or do but rather than He had an intimate relationship with us ALREADY. Trying to subject God to any part of creation can do nothing but make the difficult to understand even more so.

I know of no one who said God needs our help. It is not at issue here.

Yes you do. I don't know your personal position but if one's regeneration is dependent on the contribution of a "good" decision by man then that is absolutely an attempt to make God dependent on the goodness of the one saved to accomplish redemption.

Romans 1 said all men are aware of who God is and has the capability to come to Him and they do not so they are without excuse.

Really? Maybe you can cite the specific place that it says they are capable.

Now to be completely clear, I think in the abstract they are "capable". But in the concrete reality, they have a dead, fleshly, sinful nature that unless acted upon by the Holy Spirit will NEVER voluntarily decide to accept God.

I did not say that. Again not at issue here.

So you protest my explanation that God initiates salvation by quickening the dead spirits of those who are saved... But then claim that it is not initiated by a decision by the person? Or perhaps you are arguing that the decision to believe and follow Christ is not in every sense a "good" one?

It would seem that the initiation of belief is either by an effectual decision by God or by a "good" decision by man. Can you provide another option?

 

[Scott J]

If my God deems me one of his own. Then I am, from the beginning and its just child's play to revive me from the sins of man.

Your problem isn't with Rippon or Calvinists. Your problem is with clear scripture. Romans 8 is not ambiguous nor is Ephesians 1. In context, they teach that God chose, foreknew, and predestined the elect from the foundation of the world.

Take your school and shove it, take your presious Calvin and put it there also.

Are those words supposed to make people think you are seeking truth?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Your problem isn't with Rippon or Calvinists. Your problem is with clear scripture. Romans 8 is not ambiguous nor is Ephesians 1. In context, they teach that God chose, foreknew, and predestined the elect from the foundation of the world.



Are those words supposed to make people think you are seeking truth?

Are you asking me if I care what anyone thinks....especially a Calvinist! Ha ha ha, you can't be serious!?! :laugh::laugh:

 

[Revmitchell]

No. Not in the slightest. Do you suggest that God is governed or constrained by the "time" He created?

No, in fact it is not even in view of anything I said.

I think some who profess Calvinism err here as do pretty much all who oppose it.

Oppose what?

Romans 8 tells us that God "foreknew" the elect. That word does not mean he knew ahead of time what one would say or do but rather than He had an intimate relationship with us ALREADY.

Since it is true that we cannot have an intimate relationship with God unless we are born again, is it your position that the elect are born again prior to birth?

Trying to subject God to any part of creation can do nothing but make the difficult to understand even more so.

I know of no one who is subjecting God to man or creation. Not sure where this came from.

Yes you do. I don't know your personal position but if one's regeneration is dependent on the contribution of a "good" decision by man then that is absolutely an attempt to make God dependent on the goodness of the one saved to accomplish redemption.

This is called putting words in the mouth. I never said that neither do I believe that. I am sure your use of logic brings you to such conclusions but it is rude to impose your logic on me or my understanding of scripture.

I never said regeneration is dependent on man's good decision. Romans 6:23b tells us that salvation is a gift. Gifts are purchased and provided by the giver. The receiver of the gift must reach out and take that gift to make it theirs. Gifts are never imposed, forced, or coerced. This is the way God designed it. Man did not design this means of salvation God did. Man cannot change how God designed salvation to be offered. It is His plan, His design, and His control. He who has the authority and power to give salvation gets all the credit regardless of the response God requires from us.

Really? Maybe you can cite the specific place that it says they are capable.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Please note the underlined and bolded

Now to be completely clear, I think in the abstract they are "capable". But in the concrete reality, they have a dead, fleshly, sinful nature that unless acted upon by the Holy Spirit will NEVER voluntarily decide to accept God.

I agree and God has acted on their spirit as He does with everyone. I just quoted scripture that shows where God acts on their spirit as I have just shown you. He further reveals Himself through the preaching of the word as we see in Romans 10.

So you protest my explanation that God initiates salvation by quickening the dead spirits of those who are saved... But then claim that it is not initiated by a decision by the person?

Protest is your strong language not mine. The difference in your view and mine is that you see regeneration as some sort of initiative action in salvation and I see regeneration, born again, and salvation are synonymous.

Or perhaps you are arguing that the decision to believe and follow Christ is not in every sense a "good" one?

Please do not assume what I will or will not argue.

It would seem that the initiation of belief is either by an effectual decision by God or by a "good" decision by man. Can you provide another option?

Sure, God makes Himself known to man (Romans 1:18-22, reveals his plan of salvation in the word (John 3:1-6;16; Romans 10:9-19) and allows man to accept Him or reject Him based on His revelation.

 

[Don]

Hey, folks - I got the answer I needed back on page 1, and I'm done with this thread. Y'all can keep going if you want; just wanted to let ya know I'm done with it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Who's y'all! Ha Haaaaaa ehhhhh

 

[SovereignGrace]

I have always been saved....given before the foundations of the world. The holy spirit merely regenerates......and to others, he does not. They are left to their own devices.

Wrong. If you have always been saved, then Christ never died for you.

Christ never came to seek and save you.[Lu. 19:19]

You were never a sheep gone astray.

We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.[Isa. 53:6]

“‘For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. 12 As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. 13 I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land. 14 I will tend them in a good pasture, and the mountain heights of Israel will be their grazing land. There they will lie down in good grazing land, and there they will feed in a rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15 I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign Lord. 16 I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice."[Ez. 34:11-16]


You were lost my friend.

 

[SovereignGrace]

LOL....THERE YA GO....believing in a process of salvation again ......silly Calvinist....tricks are for kids. If my God deems me one of his own. Then I am, from the beginning and its just child's play to revive me from the sins of man. Take your school and shove it, take your presious Calvin and put it there also.

Real charitable and uplifting words you post there my friend.

 

[JonC]

"Scripture says we're predestined; but we must respond. There has to be a response."

Would one of our resident calvinists explain this further for me, please?

I would take the comment, given the context that you provided, in much the same way that I would have answered the question (so, I'm probably wrong).

I actually affirm the calvinistic view of predestination. What I reject are both those positions that deny God's predestination and that deny the necessity of human response. In light of the SBC, I understand the concern that many within the SBC has about Calvinists. But this does not justify some of the anti-Calvinistic attitudes that has occurred within the SBC (e.g., ... not i.e., but e.g., the IMB's vetting of Platt). It also does not make their concerns less valid.

The person in question may have been trying to walk a fine line between two positions that have the potential for misunderstanding and error. I, for example, believe most of what calvinistic baptists affirm (classic calvinistic soteriological views....not TULIP)...but there is so much more outside of this narrow soteriological position (which was never standalone DoG, but instead was responsive to a heretical view within Calvinism). Just because one cannot understand how God could be in complete control and people still be able to freely make choices does not mean it ain't so. Many of us have no issue at all putting those together. and maybe your person is one of us.

 

[Rippon]

Are you asking me if I care what anyone thinks....especially a Calvinist! Ha ha ha, you can't be serious!?! :laugh::laugh:

You could at least pretend to act more mature than you are. You have not improved a whit since you started posting years ago.

At times you have agreed with some of us here with hearty endorsements. Then, you turn around and act juvenvile (my neologism).

You once said that you despise "lazy answer theology." But you haven't even come up to that level. How about making a Mid-New Years' Resolution?

 

[Rippon]

Wrong. If you have always been saved, then Christ never died for you.

True. If he thinks he has always been saved he must think he's never been lost.

Christ never came to seek and save you.[Lu. 19:10]

Very true.

"For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost."

You were never a sheep gone astray.

We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.[Isa. 53:6]

“‘For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. 12 As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. 13 I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land. 14 I will tend them in a good pasture, and the mountain heights of Israel will be their grazing land. There they will lie down in good grazing land, and there they will feed in a rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15 I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign Lord. 16 I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice."[Ez. 34:11-16]

One can't spin away the Scripture cited above.

You were lost my friend.

Now that is reality.

But EW&F really knows the truth. For some reason(s) he's being sub-biblical now.

Here are some snips of what EW&F has said in the past:

"I am a USA Grade A Born Again. I have been given a new life..." (3/19/2015)

"When I was first saved, I realized that I had been loved through my wayward years of sin..." (8/6/2014)

EW&F has endorsed the sentiments of Aaron who had said that he prays for his brothers in the flesh that will be saved. EW&F gave hearty approval to that.

As I said before, if he still harbors the sub-scriptural view that he has always been saved then how does he account for the case of Lydia (which applies to all of as believers) --the Lord opened her heart. Do I need to explain that the 'opening' happened in her lifetime --not before the foundation of the world?

EW&F: The Bible says that the Lord gives new hearts to some. Instead of stony hearts --now hearts of flesh and the Holy Spirit will be placed within.

Did you get a new heart? Or will you still stubbornly insist that either a new heart was never needed in your case --or that it was given to you long before you were born?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You could at least pretend to act more mature than you are. You have not improved a whit since you started posting years ago.

At times you have agreed with some of us here with hearty endorsements. Then, you turn around and act juvenvile (my neologism).

You once said that you despise "lazy answer theology." But you haven't even come up to that level. How about Rmaking a Mid-New Years' Resolution?

Don't take this the wrong way but it haven't earned it. What scholarly person do you know who has attempted sincere dialog that has had success? Now I can list many who have tried, only to have been frustrated and left to peruse other activities. Taking this place seriously only leads to one to a feeling of desperation.

 

[Rippon]

Don't take this the wrong way but it haven't earned it.

It?

What scholarly person do you know who has attempted sincere dialog that has had success?

I am not asking for a scholarly type. I am speaking of you and your throw-away posts.

Now I can list many who have tried, only to have been frustrated and left to peruse [you mean pursue]other activities.

The point is you do not try. You engage in nonsense posts with profanities at times. You put down churches and pastors and extoll drinking.

Taking this place seriously only leads to one to a feeling of desperation.

Reading your posts and the way you "interact" is depressing.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The board has this feature called 'IGNORE'.....I suggest you use it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The board has this feature called 'IGNORE'.....I suggest you use it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Rats....double post.....sorry.

 

[Rippon]

The board has this feature called 'IGNORE'.....I suggest you use it.

One hour and 33 minutes later --a plea to the public --please ignore.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

One hour and 33 minutes later --a plea to the public --please ignore.

Ahhh Haaaaaa
aaaaa.....drama queen:laugh:

 

[Iconoclast]

"Scripture says we're predestined; but we must respond. There has to be a response."

Would one of our resident calvinists explain this further for me, please?

Hello Don,

Salvation while planned in eternity past unfolds in real time. God himself who is supra temporal enters into His own creation to accomplish redemption...

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.


God who planned and purposed redemption before the world was, has also ordained the means to have that salvation come to pass.

Men who are moved upon by God....respond, they receive and welcome the truth of the gospel being made willing by the Spirit of God working in the unseen realm.

He works effectually and then we work. Anyone who denies this has no biblical idea what they are talking about.

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure

Some with a man centered theology say man did this and man did that, but God is always at work in the life of the elect.

The word PREDESTINATION primarily deals with God's working in the elect to restore them as true Image bearers:thumbs::thumbs:

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly

 

[Rippon]

Ahhh Haaaaaa
aaaaa.....drama

You say you're on dramamine?

Please answer my post 31 and the posts of S.G. If you do not answer in a rational manner then you have no desire to move forward. You can't continue the way you've been going.