hearers/doers

[Don]

I believe when Luke refers to a non-scholar (at least in part) it is what I used to call "paint by the numbers" Christians or "TV dinner" Christians.

Hank - I assume by this you mean people who simply parrot what they've heard/been taught by whoever happens to be in the pulpit, or on the TV screen? Who don't take the time to actually read the passage that individual is making a sermon about, to determine if it's actually what the passage is about?

If so, agreed. As someone pointed out in a previous post, we should check what we're hearing, in order to determine if it's in context, if it's actual scripture, if it's actual doctrine...or someone using scripture to make a personal doctrine.

I think we all agree that we should *all* study to show ourselves approved. The consternation seems to start when there's an implication that some should not even participate in these conversations because they don't have "certain qualifications."

 

[psalms109:31]

Faith into action

In the military I went to some long classes took so many notes on how to use a weapon or what ever I was trained on and couldn't do anything with it. It wasn't until I got that in my hands and actually put what I was learning into action.

We will not be able to learn anything until we put our faith into action and make mistakes as long as you have blanks and not live round, just joking. There is those that believes lives are at stake still if we don't put our faith into action.

I met this person that seemed to me worshiped Saturday as a day of worship at my infancy. So I searched the scripture for a verse that showed him. I did a search for sabbath and worship did not find nothing then I did a search on rest and worship and found this verse.

Isaiah 44:17
From the rest he makes a god, his idol; he bows down to it and worships. He prays to it and says, “Save me! You are my god!”

It was out of context and I was humbled and made a fool of my self. I learned that I need to look at context.

In my life later God revealed another way to look at those verses.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=71973

God can teach us from our mistakes

 

[psalms109:31]

Hebrews 5:
Warning Against Falling Away
11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. 12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

 

[convicted1]

Hebrews 5:
Warning Against Falling Away
11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. 12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

Learning is an ever increasing event in our lives. I ask God pretty much daily(or close to daily) to show me what He wants me to know, and that whatever I am in the wrong with, please show me so I can get this thing right. I never want to be to the point in my life that I think I know it all.

Now, with that being said, I think that anyone should garner as much knowledge about the Word, as one can get. We can never know too much about the scriptures. But, when one goes to a seminary, they tend to learn what they are handed in that class. If one goes to a seminary that is DoG centered, more than likely they will become one theirself, or had that belief prior to going there. If you go to a seminary that is of the FW persuasion, well, you get what I am saying. We need to learn as much as possible, but do so with God's lead.

 

[Luke2427]

Learning is an ever increasing event in our lives. I ask God pretty much daily(or close to daily) to show me what He wants me to know, and that whatever I am in the wrong with, please show me so I can get this thing right. I never want to be to the point in my life that I think I know it all.

This is not enough.

God gave us teachers for a reason. We ought to learn from them- and from a multitude of them before we seek to teach ourselves.

Now, with that being said, I think that anyone should garner as much knowledge about the Word, as one can get. We can never know too much about the scriptures. But, when one goes to a seminary, they tend to learn what they are handed in that class.

On what authority do you base this statement?

Have you been to seminary? How do you know this?

We need to learn as much as possible, but do so with God's lead.

On the surface this statement is fine.

But what many people (maybe not you) mean when they make these kinds of remarks is what Winman means.

That you don't NEED teachers because you have the Holy Ghost.

This is DEADLY.

Another thing. Seminary is not enough. Not just ANY seminary is truly scholarly.

Those who teach need to be well and properly educated themselves.

Some seminaries teach theology that does not come from a multitude of counselors spanning a broad Christian history.

 

[Luke2427]

Hank - I assume by this you mean people who simply parrot what they've heard/been taught by whoever happens to be in the pulpit, or on the TV screen? Who don't take the time to actually read the passage that individual is making a sermon about, to determine if it's actually what the passage is about?

If so, agreed. As someone pointed out in a previous post, we should check what we're hearing, in order to determine if it's in context, if it's actual scripture, if it's actual doctrine...or someone using scripture to make a personal doctrine.

I think we all agree that we should *all* study to show ourselves approved. The consternation seems to start when there's an implication that some should not even participate in these conversations because they don't have "certain qualifications."

Don if someone is unlearned and they want to ask questions in these conversations that is fine.

But when they go to sharing their opinions they become dangerous.

It is unlearned people who founded MOST heretical doctrines such as United Pentecostalism.

 

[Luke2427]

Now that we are all on the same page let's proceed.
(I would omit that last sentence though)

No. It is the most important thought in that post.

My whole POINT is that people who have not learned at the feet of God gifted teachers who themselves have learned that way and yet those unlearned people speak with authority on matters that influence the immortal souls of men- those unlearned people are EVIL.

Until the Church in our culture sees it this way we are doomed to keep spiraling downward into this abyss of shallow and dying pseudo-Christian religion.

 

[Wordtraveler]

Findlay Edge wrote the following:

In spite of the fact that some members have attended Sunday school for five, ten, fifteen, or more years, there is an amazing lack of Bible knowledge even among those who are most regular in attendance. This is a matter of no little significance, for although the quality and depth of one’s spiritual life is not necessarily conditioned by his knowledge of the Bible, this knowledge does contribute to a more intelligent faith. The problem of securing results in Christian living is even more serious. Thus, the Sunday school class has tended to become a place where high Christian ideals are discussed. Too often, this study ends only in discussion without sufficient carry-over into daily life in the home, school, business, recreational activities, social activities, and other areas of experience[/QUOTE]

Do you believe this is still the case?
Are we hearers and not doers?
How do you personally strive to avoid this sinful neglect of obeying truth?

As a teacher/preacher for the past 17 years or so, I would agree with the "amazing lack of Bible knowledge" that seems rampant in the church -- even by people who have attended most of their lives!
I believe the problem with "securing results in Christian living" has to do with a lack of good discipleship programs in the church.
I really can only speak for the Sunday School classes I attend or teach in, and they are Biblically sound. I strive to teach some form of life application when I teach.
I, myself am more of a "hearer" than a "doer" more often than I like to admit, and I try to curb that by praying "without ceasing", and daily studying and meditating on the Scriptures.

I've read through this post, and it seems that some are saying that we should not speak on matters of theology if we are not read up on the great theologians of history.
Well, IMHO, the opinions of those learned men must be measured against the ultimate standard--the Word of God, under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit--the ultimate Teacher!

"Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, a light unto my path."-- not Martin Luther's, John Calvin's, or even Charles Hadden Spurgeon's words!

In Christ,
WT

 

[Luke2427]

I've read through this post, and it seems that some are saying that we should not speak on matters of theology if we are not read up on the great theologians of history.
Well, IMHO, the opinions of those learned men must be measured against the ultimate standard--the Word of God, under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit--the ultimate Teacher!

"Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, a light unto my path."-- not Martin Luther's, John Calvin's, or even Charles Hadden Spurgeon's words!

In Christ,
WT

God gave the Church TEACHERS to profit the body. To bypass this gift or ignore it and to go it alone on Bible interpretation is horrendous arrogance and presumption.

It is this more than anything else, imo, that has plunged our culture into the apostasy of this age.

People who do not humble themselves before a multitude of counselors which should include giving close attention to what the great, orthodox God-gifted teachers of the ages taught- those people who ignore or barely give a nod to these teachers are VERY dangerous.

You handle something with more power than a nuclear bomb when you handle the Word of God. One who handles it carelessly is EXTRAORDINARILY dangerous.

This is WHY God gave us TEACHERS throughout the ages of the church. None of them are infallible. All of them are no doubt wrong on something. But their wisdom should be sought before proclaiming matters that influence the immortal souls of men.

 

[convicted1]

This is not enough.

God gave us teachers for a reason. We ought to learn from them- and from a multitude of them before we seek to teach ourselves.

Well, I agree that it is good to learn from others. But we need to be careful in who we listen to. Our most important teacher is God....I know you know that.

On what authority do you base this statement?

Have you been to seminary? How do you know this?

Well, the point I was trying to make is that the pupil isn't better than the teacher(in quite a few cases, but not all), and that they tend to follow their lead. Meaning that if someone set under Benny Hinn's teaching(God forbid), they will tend to want to blow on people and watch them fall back, being slain in the Spirit. If someone sets under John Hagee's teaching(another God forbid), they will want to rub shoulders with every Jew in the world, and tell them how eventhough they do not believe in Jesus, God is going to give them back Jerusalem, and that they are Brothers. If someone sits under Piper, macarthur, etc., they will tend to follow after DoG.....like I said, not in all cases, but I do think in a majority of them, they follow the leader.

On the surface this statement is fine.

But what many people (maybe not you) mean when they make these kinds of remarks is what Winman means.

That you don't NEED teachers because you have the Holy Ghost.

This is DEADLY.

Another thing. Seminary is not enough. Not just ANY seminary is truly scholarly.

Those who teach need to be well and properly educated themselves.

Some seminaries teach theology that does not come from a multitude of counselors spanning a broad Christian history.

I need to be taught, I agree with this wholeheartedly. But I am careful who I listen to. I work with a woman who is a "preacher" and she is of the WoF bunch. Do you think I accept much of what she "shows" me? NO!! So, I do need taught, but I want to know about the one who is teaching me. I hope this clears this up better.

 

[Luke2427]

Well, I agree that it is good to learn from others. But we need to be careful in who we listen to. Our most important teacher is God....I know you know that.



Well, the point I was trying to make is that the pupil isn't better than the teacher(in quite a few cases, but not all), and that they tend to follow their lead. Meaning that if someone set under Benny Hinn's teaching(God forbid), they will tend to want to blow on people and watch them fall back, being slain in the Spirit. If someone sets under John Hagee's teaching(another God forbid), they will want to rub shoulders with every Jew in the world, and tell them how eventhough they do not believe in Jesus, God is going to give them back Jerusalem, and that they are Brothers. If someone sits under Piper, macarthur, etc., they will tend to follow after DoG.....like I said, not in all cases, but I do think in a majority of them, they follow the leader.



I need to be taught, I agree with this wholeheartedly. But I am careful who I listen to. I work with a woman who is a "preacher" and she is of the WoF bunch. Do you think I accept much of what she "shows" me? NO!! So, I do need taught, but I want to know about the one who is teaching me. I hope this clears this up better.

Yes. The WoF is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

It is a movement that was born of theological and church historical ignorance.

You should not heed her teachings because she is not a qualified educator. She is not a qualified educator because she has come to her beliefs by ignoring the scholarship of God-gifted teachers spanning nearly two thousand years of history.

She BELIEVES in the BIBLE. And she would say the EXACT same thing you are arguing for here. She would say GOD has led her to these things.

She would say the BIBLE is HER authority.

But what separates her from credible teachers of doctrine is that she is part of a movement that was born of people who did NOT submit their interpretations to historic Christian scholarship.

I am afraid that her philosophy and Winman's philosophy concerning Bible interpretation is IDENTICAL.

And I fear that it is very similar to numerous people on BB and MOST "Christians" in this apostate religious culture of ours.

 

[HankD]

Hank - I assume by this you mean people who simply parrot what they've heard/been taught by whoever happens to be in the pulpit, or on the TV screen? Who don't take the time to actually read the passage that individual is making a sermon about, to determine if it's actually what the passage is about?

If so, agreed. As someone pointed out in a previous post, we should check what we're hearing, in order to determine if it's in context, if it's actual scripture, if it's actual doctrine...or someone using scripture to make a personal doctrine.

I think we all agree that we should *all* study to show ourselves approved. The consternation seems to start when there's an implication that some should not even participate in these conversations because they don't have "certain qualifications."

Yes, ideally the pastor leads the sheep to the meadow and they eat. The pastor sets the milk before the babes, and the meat before the strong.

Although, sometimes "spoon feeding" is necssary.

But my thoughts go to another level. A "paint by number" personal theology is one in which an individual pieces together a systematic theology without much thought or contemplation. Whoever gets to them first.

I guess we all have a little of that early on.

In the church which I attend, the pastor has a special class for new members to ground them in the scripture so that they can stand on their own.

A TV dinner is a frozen dinner which is popped in the oven and heated up and comes out in a few minutes but gives the impression (if not looked at too closely) of a meal which took time and skill to prepare.

Comparatively, some have a good looking apparent grasp of the Scripture but it's not a product of diligence but being able to pop a spiritual TV dinner into the oven. A "cut and paste" approach by another simile.

Again, this is somewhat unavoidable until we "get our sea-legs".

I'm really not pointing at anyone here at the BB in particular.
I had been caught up in these situations early on in my salvation.

I came out of a Roman Catholic background with a lot of grave clothes to shed and went through many phases.

HankD

 

[psalms109:31]

Run

I am so glad for the teachers in my life that taught the scripture expository preaching. That did not mold scripture into a man-made doctrine, but told it just as it is. That even in their mind found scripture that contradicted, but they did not reconcile it out, but ran it in a parallel line that leads to God.

That when people told me I didn't have to be baptized I can run away or there is no hell, but three stages of heaven and some man in the woods got revelation from a angel I can run away from them.

I praise God when I ran into contradiction I didn't have to trust in man who would mold scripture into a man-made doctrine, but run away far away from them.

God translated the word of God for us so we can see false teachers and run away and only listen to the voice of the true shepherd Jesus.

The devil can disguise himself as an angel of light, you can believe he is only doing the will of God or run away.

 

[Wordtraveler]

God gave the Church TEACHERS to profit the body. To bypass this gift or ignore it and to go it alone on Bible interpretation is horrendous arrogance and presumption.

Or, it is reliance by faith on the Holy Spirit who dwells within me.

It is this more than anything else, imo, that has plunged our culture into the apostasy of this age.

I respect your opinion, but I disagree. The rejection of the God of the Bible in our culture has accomplished our current apostasy.

People who do not humble themselves before a multitude of counselors which should include giving close attention to what the great, orthodox God-gifted teachers of the ages taught- those people who ignore or barely give a nod to these teachers are VERY dangerous.

We have to humble ourselves before God, not man.

You handle something with more power than a nuclear bomb when you handle the Word of God. One who handles it carelessly is EXTRAORDINARILY dangerous.

One who handles it "in the flesh" can indeed be a danger to the culture.

This is WHY God gave us TEACHERS throughout the ages of the church. None of them are infallible. All of them are no doubt wrong on something. But their wisdom should be sought before proclaiming matters that influence the immortal souls of men.

Good teachers are indeed gifts from God. But, because they are fallen sinners their teachings must be measured by the perfect standard of God's inerrant, infallible Word!
Because I am a Christian, I don't have to rely on the wisdom of fallen humanity.

"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." James 1:5

In Christ,
WT

 

[DHK]

No. It is the most important thought in that post.

My whole POINT is that people who have not learned at the feet of God gifted teachers who themselves have learned that way and yet those unlearned people speak with authority on matters that influence the immortal souls of men- those unlearned people are EVIL.

Until the Church in our culture sees it this way we are doomed to keep spiraling downward into this abyss of shallow and dying pseudo-Christian religion.

We live in a privileged nation and culture. I am a missionary. I mentioned this to you before, and I think it went right over your head. There are some nations that have an illiteracy rate of over 75%. They can't even read the Bible in their own language much less study in any other language. They can't compare what a preacher says to anything. At best they can be taught by hearing the Word of God, and they can pray. Some of these soldiers of Christ are some of the most Godly people I know. One of them is blind, and yet has memorized dozens of chapters of the Bible. He did it by having his son (who could read), read chapters of the Bible to him while he repeated them and then committed them to memory. That is dedication! I met a man with his leg cut off. He is a converted Muslim that his family tried to kill. He is a leader in his community with the joy of Jesus written all over his face. They may not be "scholars" but they have drawn close to the Lord through the trials and tribulations of suffering for Christ, that you probably will never face in this lifetime. Their faith is more precious than gold though it be tried with fire might be found unto the praise and honor and glory, at the appearing of Jesus Christ.

 

[JesusFan]

Yes. The WoF is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

It is a movement that was born of theological and church historical ignorance.

You should not heed her teachings because she is not a qualified educator. She is not a qualified educator because she has come to her beliefs by ignoring the scholarship of God-gifted teachers spanning nearly two thousand years of history.

She BELIEVES in the BIBLE. And she would say the EXACT same thing you are arguing for here. She would say GOD has led her to these things.

She would say the BIBLE is HER authority.

But what separates her from credible teachers of doctrine is that she is part of a movement that was born of people who did NOT submit their interpretations to historic Christian scholarship.

I am afraid that her philosophy and Winman's philosophy concerning Bible interpretation is IDENTICAL.

And I fear that it is very similar to numerous people on BB and MOST "Christians" in this apostate religious culture of ours.

What IS ironic about the WoF movement is that there ARE solid Chrsituians who hapen to be charasmatic, some even in baptist Churches, who denounce that teaching/doctrine as being rank heresy!

Its a perfect example of what happens when ANY valid doctrine in the Bible is over emphasised, in this case 'faith" to such an extreme, at exclusion of ALL other sound doctrines...

That it become heritical by basis of there being to counter balance to it, no taking "whole council" of the Bible, so their doctrine goes past orthodoxy into heresy 101!

 

[DHK]

What IS ironic about the WoF movement is that there ARE solid Chrsituians who hapen to be charasmatic, some even in baptist Churches, who denounce that teaching/doctrine as being rank heresy!

Obviously if they denounce "teaching/doctrine as being rank heresy" then they are not "solid Christians." And they certainly not solid Christians, as they base their beliefs on experience rather than doctrine. Experience trumps doctrine every time. Their doctrine is built on a foundation of experience. They have the wrong foundation.

 

[JesusFan]

Obviously if they denounce "teaching/doctrine as being rank heresy" then they are not "solid Christians." And they certainly not solid Christians, as they base their beliefs on experience rather than doctrine. Experience trumps doctrine every time. Their doctrine is built on a foundation of experience. They have the wrong foundation.

meant to say that the wof doctrines/teachings are denounced by even fellow pentacostalists/charasmatics as being not from God, non biblical heresy!

 

[Amy.G]

We live in a privileged nation and culture. I am a missionary. I mentioned this to you before, and I think it went right over your head. There are some nations that have an illiteracy rate of over 75%. They can't even read the Bible in their own language much less study in any other language. They can't compare what a preacher says to anything. At best they can be taught by hearing the Word of God, and they can pray. Some of these soldiers of Christ are some of the most Godly people I know. One of them is blind, and yet has memorized dozens of chapters of the Bible. He did it by having his son (who could read), read chapters of the Bible to him while he repeated them and then committed them to memory. That is dedication! I met a man with his leg cut off. He is a converted Muslim that his family tried to kill. He is a leader in his community with the joy of Jesus written all over his face. They may not be "scholars" but they have drawn close to the Lord through the trials and tribulations of suffering for Christ, that you probably will never face in this lifetime. Their faith is more precious than gold though it be tried with fire might be found unto the praise and honor and glory, at the appearing of Jesus Christ.

:thumbsup: I think it would do Luke a lot of good to get out of his little sheltered corner and actually see what the rest of the world is like.

 

[Luke2427]

We live in a privileged nation and culture. I am a missionary. I mentioned this to you before, and I think it went right over your head. There are some nations that have an illiteracy rate of over 75%. They can't even read the Bible in their own language much less study in any other language. They can't compare what a preacher says to anything. At best they can be taught by hearing the Word of God, and they can pray. Some of these soldiers of Christ are some of the most Godly people I know. One of them is blind, and yet has memorized dozens of chapters of the Bible. He did it by having his son (who could read), read chapters of the Bible to him while he repeated them and then committed them to memory. That is dedication! I met a man with his leg cut off. He is a converted Muslim that his family tried to kill. He is a leader in his community with the joy of Jesus written all over his face. They may not be "scholars" but they have drawn close to the Lord through the trials and tribulations of suffering for Christ, that you probably will never face in this lifetime. Their faith is more precious than gold though it be tried with fire might be found unto the praise and honor and glory, at the appearing of Jesus Christ.

This very touching and commendable but it has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

No one is saying that people cannot be devout unless they are scholars.

I am saying that unless they have a good education concerning the doctrines of God they ought to remain silent on those that they do not understand.

I said earlier that the Gospel is like an iceberg. A small portion of it that is visible on the surface can make a huge impact (it can save the soul) but the Gospel is massive and complex beneath the surface.

Everyone who is saved can tell about that small part of the Gospel that impacted their lives. And they should. It is a sin for them not to.

But until they sit at the feet of scholars who have themselves sat at the feet (figuratively- it can be with their face in a multitude of theological works, etc...) of scholars, etc, etc, etc, they should have the humility to keep silent.

They should do this because what they carry is extremely powerful and in the wrong hands has brought the worst catastrophes and blasphemies upon this earth that the world has ever known.