Heaven Or Hell?

[Greektim]

Not sure that there was an error, which is why I asked for clarification.

You said...



...so I am not sure how you have Lazarus in torment. Or Abraham for that matter.

Perhaps sarcasm?


God bless.

Not a typo. Just a brain blunder I suppose, that the rich man could be w/ Abraham and yet in torment.

 

[Darrell C]

Not a typo. Just a brain blunder I suppose, that the rich man could be w/ Abraham and yet in torment.

Hate it when that happens, lol.


God bless.

 

[percho]

So who is the Seed?


.

By answering this I will answer all.

The seed (singular) of the inheritance, by promise, is the Christ, Jesus of Nazareth. All whether before the law or after the law died, in faith.

Even though Son, Jesus through the things he suffered learned the obedience, thus becoming the faith of which they had died; And the Son, the heir of God, inherited the promise of God who could not lie made before the world began, the hope of eternal life, by the resurrection from the dead. Jesus is the seed who received the promise of life. Life which could not be received by the law. Jesus receiver from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit and shed it abundantly on the redeemed and now they have become heirs of the same promise, the hope of eternal life.

Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:6,7

BTW hope there is the very same hope of Romans 8:24,25. Those who died in faith and those who are dead in Christ still, with patience wait for it.

 

[Darrell C]

By answering this I will answer all.

Not really.

The seed (singular) of the inheritance, by promise, is the Christ, Jesus of Nazareth.

You are confusing who inherits what.

The promise is not made to Christ in regards to redemption, but to man. Christ is the fulfillment of the promise, not a recipient.

All whether before the law or after the law died, in faith.

Not all of them, lol.

But I know what you mean.

Even though Son, Jesus through the things he suffered learned the obedience, thus becoming the faith of which they had died;

Incorrect. Christ became the object of faith through the Incarnation and Resurrection.

Those who died in faith expressed faith in God, and this faith was apparent through their obedience to His revealed will. This is what the Writer of Hebrews means when he exhorts them to "go on unto perfection, not laying again the foundation of...faith in God."

Only after Christ's death did were men commanded to place their faith in the Risen Christ.

And the Son, the heir of God, inherited the promise of God who could not lie made before the world began, the hope of eternal life, by the resurrection from the dead.

Your wording still gives an impression that you are ascribing salvific value to the Person of the Son. Christ did not and does not "inherit the Promise of God," He bestows it. He makes it complete.

This would be like me saying "I promise you that I am going to teach you to understand the concept/theme of perfection in Hebrews," then, when I have done that, you say I have taught myself."

Jesus is the seed who received the promise of life.

Not in a salvific sense. Christ bestows life, He is the source. It's not like God poured eternal life into Christ so He could be the source for men. Eternal Life is not a substance, it is a Person, that is...God.

Life which could not be received by the law.

Correct. Christ contrasts the provision for life in the Wilderness, which was strictly physical, with the provision of Himself...which is eternal:



John 6:27

King James Version (KJV)

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.


Christ always speaks of Himself as bestowing eternal life. He is not simply a conduit, and it may be inadvertent, but how you word this is how your statement comes across.

Jesus receiver from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit and shed it abundantly on the redeemed and now they have become heirs of the same promise, the hope of eternal life.

This is true, but, again it seems as though Christ is a conduit, rather than the One bestowing eternal life:

John 6:33

King James Version (KJV)

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.



John 10:27-29

King James Version (KJV)

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:6,7

Christ bestows eternal life, He is God.

BTW hope there is the very same hope of Romans 8:24,25. Those who died in faith and those who are dead in Christ still, with patience wait for it.

Sorry, no, those who died in faith have been made perfect in regards to redemption, Christ having obtained eternal redemption for them as well. See Hebrews 9:12-15 and Hebrews 12:18 and Hebrews 12:22-24, and note the contrast between the Law and the New Covenant. Note the "spirits made perfect." Those are the spirits of the Old Testament Saints, and this applies on a spiritual level in regards to redemption, not a physical level. THey are, now, already...made perfect through the Work of Christ.

But...they too await the redemption of their bodies, even as we, and those who have died in Christ since Pentecost.

Now they still await the redemption of their bodies, which at least for the Church will take place at the Rapture. As to whether the Old Testament Saints are raised at this time, that is a point which can be debated.

You are confusing redemption in it's phases as taught in Scripture. You are still confusing regeneration with the rising from the dead.

As I said, I don't know if it is your Theology or it is inadvertent, but your statements reduce the Son of God from God to a conduit Who Himself benefited from His Redemptive Work.

And anyway, getting off topic. You say you addressed all, you did not.

Just post my points and address them individually, if you don't mind. I will not respond to off-topic responses any further.


God bless.

 

[percho]

KJV John 8:42,54 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
KJV Hebrews 1:1.2 God, (The one who Jesus said is his Father, I assume. The one, I assume those in John 8:54 was calling their, God.)) who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, (Jesus, I assume.) whom he (?God, the Father?) hath appointed heir (?Jesus, the Son?) of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Exactly when is this Son, who is actually going to die BTW, going to inherit these all things? Did the Son have to die the death appointed to man, relative to God, in order to die for the ungodly, to die for our sins? Was he dead as dead can be? The soul that sinneth it shall die. Is that the death he died for the ungodly, that he died for us? Was the soul of him dead for three days and three nights, in Hades, relative to God, his Father? And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Matt 28:18 Before or after dying and being raised from the dead?

The prayer of Jesus, while still at supper. John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Then he goes into the garden and there prays again.

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. Luke 22:42-44

Here is what the writer of Hebrews had to say about that. Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

When was he given the glory for which he prayed? 1 Peter 1:21? When did Son by inheritance obtained a name more excellent than the angels?
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?

Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

 

[Darrell C]

KJV John 8:42,54 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
KJV Hebrews 1:1.2 God, (The one who Jesus said is his Father, I assume. The one, I assume those in John 8:54 was calling their, God.)) who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, (Jesus, I assume.) whom he (?God, the Father?) hath appointed heir (?Jesus, the Son?) of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Perhaps you might consider that the Son of God and the Christ have to be considered in their respective Roles. Christ has a beginning (when that flesh was created in Mary and He left Heaven to take up residence in it) which marks something unique and new in this world.

Now let me ask you...do you understand that the Son of God is God? That He is Eternal?

Do you think that the very Creation the Son of God created did not already belong to Him?

Exactly when is this Son, who is actually going to die BTW, going to inherit these all things?

From a temporal perspective the Son inherited possession when He came into the world. Christ is now Lord of Lords, and while we await Him putting down the dominance of evil in this world, and we will see a more visible display of His Lordship, that doesn't lessen the fact that He is God.

Always has been, always will be.

And could you tell me why the fact that He died physically in the flesh He manifested in is so significant to you? Is that still more confusion as to what regeneration is? Do you still think that the Son of God had to be born again?

Did the Son have to die the death appointed to man, relative to God, in order to die for the ungodly, to die for our sins?

I'll pretend you didn't just ask that, lol.

That is the central theme of Redemption in Scripture, Percho.

Was he dead as dead can be?

No, Percho, the only death that took place was physical death. He declared it finished on the Cross.

The soul that sinneth it shall die.

So what is a soul?

If you say an immaterial aspect of man's make-up I will disagree. Ezekiel 18 is not speaking from an eternal perspective...it is speaking from a temporal perspective.

If you think the death in view is eternal, then you must make the life eternal as well, which means you have Scripture contradicting itself, because we already know that men do not gain eternal life through keeping the Law.

The "soul" in view is simply a person, the man himself. We can replace "soul" with "person" and it will make more sense, as well as fit into the Soteriology that Scripture teaches.

The person that sins will die. That is the basic teaching of the Old Testament, and we see that men were physically put to death for sin.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Is that the death he died for the ungodly, that he died for us?

What was the means of atonement in the Old Testament? Death. Physical death.


Hebrews 9:22

King James Version (KJV)

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.


That is the standard, and those sacrifices were the God ordained means of remission of sins. But...they did not make the comer thereunto complete.

Christ's Sacrifice did.

Now where is that Sacrifice seen to take place?

On the Cross. He did not die the Second Death, it was not necessary. He died in our stead, and that satisfies the debt we owe/d.

Was the soul of him dead for three days and three nights, in Hades, relative to God, his Father?

The "soul of Him" was not "dead three days and three nights," Percho.

Only the body was dead three days and three nights.

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Matt 28:18 Before or after dying and being raised from the dead?

Before and after.

And this has specific relation to the Incarnation. He was still Eternal God.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

The prayer of Jesus, while still at supper. John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

And this is the thing to consider, Percho...He is asking for the Father to glorify Him with the glory He had previously.

Most think the Son was "emptied" of His Deity, that is not the case...His Deity was veiled in the very flesh He took upon Himself. The Glory that He still had was to be revealed to men through His death, burial, and resurrection. This is the time when we would have revealed to us that He was God manifest in the flesh.


Philippians 2:5-8

King James Version (KJV)

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


It was His glory He laid aside for the purpose of dying in man's stead/


Hebrews 10:19-20

King James Version (KJV)

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


The veil of the Tabernacle/Temple separated man from God in the figure the Law presents. So too the flesh of Christ was a veil that the Son went through, leading men to God. Third, and most importantly, that is the "veil" we go through to God.

Just as the Priest went through that veil into the presence of God (representation of God in earthly figure, the Holy of Holies), we go through a/the veil to come into the presence of God. And that veil is called His flesh, and we see the combined concepts all in the Person of the Christ.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Then he goes into the garden and there prays again.

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. Luke 22:42-44

Here is what the writer of Hebrews had to say about that. Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

The Son of God veiled His glory in human flesh for the specific purpose of going to the Cross to die in man's stead.

So you're not going to convince me Christ was asking for a Plan B.

Christ came into to the world to die, and He clarifies that here:


John 18:10-11

King James Version (KJV)

10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.

11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?


So we consider whether this is a contradiction, or weakness on the part of Christ in His humanity, and I see a simple resolution in the text itself:


Matthew 26:39-41

King James Version (KJV)

39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?

41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.


In view is not just a matter of the Cross, but the Incarnation itself. There was no thought in Christ's mind that a Plan B was available, hence we consider that the suffering involved in Eternal God residing in human flesh and the considerable sorrow man causes God could be factored into what is taking place here.

As I said before, I see in this, not just a momentary lapse of resolve on the part of Christ, but a desire for His Role as the Messiah to...pass.

Not a popular view, I know, but again, it makes little sense for the Son of God to go through the trouble of veiling His glory in human flesh for the specific intent of dying in man's stead only to have "second thoughts" on the verge of completion of that aspect of the Redemptive plan known to God before the world was formed.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

When was he given the glory for which he prayed? 1 Peter 1:21?

It is in relation to the Incarnation only.

It is a removal of the veiling of His glory, not something new to the Son of God.

When did Son by inheritance obtained a name more excellent than the angels?

It is in relation to the Incarnation only.

His role within humanity began when He took on the seed of Abraham.


Hebrews 2:16-17

King James Version (KJV)

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?

It is in relation to the Incarnation only.

The Son of God never ceased being God, Percho. He did not, because He manifested in flesh, take on a sin nature as many see as inherited through procreation.

He did not need to be born again.

Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

The Resurrection is the declaration, the affirmation that He is the Son of God.

Again, it is specific to the Incarnation:


Romans 1

King James Version (KJV)

3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:


He did not cease to be God in the Incarnation, nor did He cease to be God because the physical flesh He inhabited died.

He did not need to be born again, regeneration has nothing to do with physical resurrection, it is a spiritual resurrection of spiritually dead men who have no life, because they do not have relationship with God when they are born. The Atonement makes Reconciliation possible for men, at which time God immerses men into Himself.

The resurrection of the dead, on the other hand, is physical, and deals with the body itself.

When men died prior to the Cross, they went into Hades/Sheol because they had not yet benefited from the Atonement wrought through the Cross. No man has at this time been resurrected from the dead into glorified form...except Christ.

If we confuse regeneration with resurrection from the dead we will confuse quite a bit about resurrection in general, as well as those elements of salvation which we need to understand in order to properly balance the teachings we have concerning them.


Continued...