Heavens devils?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Jesus called Judas a devil. Some say that Judas was saved, and believing in OSAS they count him in. My question to the list is, will there be any devils in heaven?

 

[Marcia]

No, of course not! How could there be? Demons cannot be saved and only the saved will be in God's kingdom.

Judas was not saved. Jesus said it would have better for him to have never been born. Jesus also said, when praying to the Father, that he had all the Father had given him, except one (guess who?). I think that and other statements make it abundantly clear Judas was not saved.

 

[av1611jim]

2Ti 2:23
But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

Bbased on some of the topics you have posted, I think there will be at least ONE devil up there.

You devil you!:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Brother Bob]

Bbased on some of the topics you have posted, I think there will be at least ONE devil up there.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Well he is my friend anyway.

I vote NO!! he was not saved. As God knew Esau would sell his birthright before he was ever born, the same is true with

Judas. God knew from the foundation of the world what Judas would do. Does anyone think for one minute that Judas was a

surprise to God when he betrayed the Lord? I have heard since being on here murderers in church, adulterers in church, and

now I hear Judas was saved. I begin to wonder what is church anyway, is it a place for the cleaned up or the still filthy, and

that included me too for I once was as bad as they get.?

 

[Inquiring Mind]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Well he is my friend anyway.

I vote NO!! he was not saved. As God knew Esau would sell his birthright before he was ever born, the same is true with

Judas. God knew from the foundation of the world what Judas would do. Does anyone think for one minute that Judas was a

surprise to God when he betrayed the Lord? I have heard since being on here murderers in church, adulterers in church, and

now I hear Judas was saved. I begin to wonder what is church anyway, is it a place for the cleaned up or the still filthy, and

that included me too for I once was as bad as they get.?

Judas has a very important function to fulfill. He did his part as was required of Prophecy. Do you think God is going to damn him when God himself chose him to be the one to fulfilll prophecy and to be an Apostle?

Question comes up. Who is the twelfth Apostle sitting in the twelvth throne in Heaven judging the tribes of Israel. Which Apostle is on the twelfth gate of New Jerasalem?

Speculation abounds!

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus called Judas a devil. Some say that Judas was saved, and believing in OSAS they count him in. My question to the list is, will there be any devils in heaven?

Nope OSAS is wrong.

However - even a 3 and 5 point Calvinist would claim that Judas was not saved. Only a 4 point Calvinist would claim he was saved and so what if he was a "devil" still.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Marcia]

Judas has a very important function to fulfill. He did his part as was required of Prophecy. Do you think God is going to damn him when God himself chose him to be the one to fulfilll prophecy and to be an Apostle?

Jesus damned him. He called him a devil, said he should have never been born, etc. Satan entered Judas when he betrayed Jesus. God didn't make Judas betray Jesus! That was Judas deciding to do that.

God used lots of unbelievers in the Bible for his purposes - that doesn't mean they were saved.

 

[Hope of Glory]

No, of course not! How could there be? Demons cannot be saved and only the saved will be in God's kingdom.

The OP was talking about devils, not demons. I know the KJV is fast and loose with the mistranslating of those two words, but they are quite different.

Look in 1 Timothy 3:11 to find another verse that talks about devils, and I think you will agree that these are mostly talking about saved individuals:

Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

 

[Hope of Glory]

I vote NO!! he was not saved. As God knew Esau would sell his birthright before he was ever born

Interesting that you should bring this up. Esau still had an inheritance, he simply sold the birthright of the firstborn for a brief moment of physical satisfaction. He also still had a blessing.

Inheritance, and a blessing... Esau is not a type of an unsaved person. He is a type who did not esteem his inheritance.

 

[Brother Bob]

Esau is not a type of an unsaved person. He is a type who did not esteem his inheritance.

Esau was a type of "sinful flesh" which cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven but must first die and be made Spiritual.

 

[Brother Bob]

Do you think God is going to damn him when God himself chose him to be the one to fulfilll prophecy and to be an Apostle?

He was already damned. It was no surprise to God what Judas did.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: God didn't make Judas betray Jesus! That was Judas deciding to do that.

HP: I find you remarks on target. Apart from Judas repenting in his last breath, which I find no reason to believe it happened, I believe Scripture represents him as a fit candidate for eternal punishment.

Foreknowing the actions of Judas, did not necessitate his betrayal of Christ. I would take that a step further. Foreknowing those that will fulfill the conditions God has mandated to receive His salvation, in no way necessitates their salvation coming to pass either.

I believe a sound approach to theology must recognize that God has so designed man to be a ‘first cause’ of his moral intents and subsequent actions. It would be absurd, even wicked to me, to even consider God blaming or praising men for necessitated intents, let alone punishing man for something He designed and orchestrated on the wings of necessitated fate.

 

[Brother Bob]

Is anyone suggesting that God didn't have a "plan" of Salvation that included the betrayal of Jesus? Not saying that Judas was chosen by God to betray Jesus but God knowing all things knew who would fit in His plan.

 

[EdSutton]

Judas has a very important function to fulfill. He did his part as was required of Prophecy. Do you think God is going to damn him when God himself chose him to be the one to fulfilll prophecy and to be an Apostle?

Question comes up. Who is the twelfth Apostle sitting in the twelvth throne in Heaven judging the tribes of Israel. Which Apostle is on the twelfth gate of New Jerasalem?

Speculation abounds!

I 'speculate' that it is Matthais. {He was "numbered with the eleven apostles." [( και συγκατεψηφισθη μετα των ενδεκα αποστολων) Acts 1:26] And the apostolic phrase of "the twelve" is again used in Acts 6:2, and "the apostles" in Acts 6:6 both phrases of which I believe, signify the whole company, including Matthais.}

I do not think the sometimes 'take' that Paul was really the one to replace Judas as one of the twelve is accurate, simply because with that thinking, he would still be only the eleventh, as James, the brother of John had been killed by Herod (Acts 12:2), sometime before we hear of Paul being 'apostled' (sent) in Acts 13:2-4. Note that Barnabas was also one of two 'sent', and is called an apostle in Acts 14:14.

I'm not accepting the continued 'Twelve Apostles' continuatiion bit of so-called 'apostolic Succession', as I ain't into Mormon theology, and have no intention of going there. :smilewinkgrin: :laugh:

Ed

P.S. Oh yeah! Another 'speculative' question. :tongue3: Was the Philip, who preached in Acts 8, and who there met up with the Ethiopian eunuch, Philip, the apostle, who was of the twelve, or Philip, the evangelist, who was of the seven? :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Brother Bob: Is anyone suggesting that God didn't have a "plan" of Salvation that included the betrayal of Jesus? Not saying that Judas was chosen by God to betray Jesus but God knowing all things knew who would fit in His plan.

HP: I hope I have not suggested any such thing. God is indeed Omnipotent, but that Omnipotence, which includes that which He foreknows, does NOT necessitate moral beings forming intents of which they are praised and blamed, rewarded or punished. God simply foreknows the matters of perfect choice of moral beings, and uses those choices in whatever way an Omnipotent Loving God chooses to utilize them to suit His own intents and purposes.

I am sure I am not speaking in the clearest terms, and I am constantly changing the way I articulate things as God gives me light and men such as yourself stimulate my thinking by explanations and questions brought to bear. We often have to even change the way we articulate things according to the audience we address.

 

[Brother Bob]

HP: I hope I have not suggested any such thing. God is indeed Omnipotent, but that Omnipotence, which includes that which He foreknows, does NOT necessitate moral beings forming intents of which they are praised and blamed, rewarded or punished. God simply foreknows the matters of perfect choice of moral beings, and uses those choices in whatever way an Omnipotent Loving God chooses to utilize them to suit His own intents and purposes.

I am sure I am not speaking in the clearest terms, and I am constantly changing the way I articulate things as God gives me light and men such as yourself stimulate my thinking by explanations and questions brought to bear. We often have to even change the way we articulate things according to the audience we address.

Well said, it is what I been trying to say but not with such clarity that makes it so easily understood. Thank,

 

[LeBuick]

HP: I hope I have not suggested any such thing. God is indeed Omnipotent, but that Omnipotence, which includes that which He foreknows, does NOT necessitate moral beings forming intents of which they are praised and blamed, rewarded or punished. God simply foreknows the matters of perfect choice of moral beings, and uses those choices in whatever way an Omnipotent Loving God chooses to utilize them to suit His own intents and purposes.

I am sure I am not speaking in the clearest terms, and I am constantly changing the way I articulate things as God gives me light and men such as yourself stimulate my thinking by explanations and questions brought to bear. We often have to even change the way we articulate things according to the audience we address.

I agree, if anyone could have ever made prophesy wrong it would have been Judas. He was there with Jesus. He walked with him, talked with him, ate with him and was taught directly by him. He saw him heal the sick, raise the dead and give sight to the blind and his heart never converted. Inside his heart, he desired money so that he betrayed his master for 30 pieces of silver. No one forced him to betray Jesus. No one forced him to bring those men to where Jesus was. No one forced him to kiss Jesus. These were all things he did because he still valued silver over eternal life.

Lastly, I believe Paul made it more than clear he was an apostle called and taught by Jesus himself. Mathias was not called by Christ, he won the roll of the dice.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Esau was a type of "sinful flesh" which cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven but must first die and be made Spiritual.

Amen! That's my point. He is not a picture of saved vs unsaved; it's a matter of inheritance and dieing to self! He had an inheritance in the land; he was a part of the family; he was saved. But, he did not esteem the better inheritance that required a death to self.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

LeBuick: These were all things he did because he still valued silver over eternal life.

HP: It is my feeling that there was a time in that Judas was a sincere follower, and greatly loved by Jesus, but he turned from that position of hope for whatever reasons. One of them might indeed be as you say, the love of money. His rejection of the truth more than likely started before the trade of his allegiance to Christ for the mere thirty pieces of silver.

I believe the life of Judas is a warning to us to take heed when we think we stand, lest we fall.

 

[BobRyan]

The OP was talking about devils, not demons. I know the KJV is fast and loose with the mistranslating of those two words, but they are quite different.

Look in 1 Timothy 3:11 to find another verse that talks about devils, and I think you will agree that these are mostly talking about saved individuals:

Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

Christ stated the the "father of the Jewish leaders" was the devil - who was a liar from the beginning.

"The Devil" is always a reference to Satan -- "devils" are literally the other fallen angels and so also does the term "demon" reference that same group. But sometimes these terms are used to apply to people.

Christ said to Peter "get thee behind me Satan". --

So as much as the terms are applied to people - it is only to show that some attribute or characteristic of the real "devil" is being displayed by a person.

in Christ,

Bob