Heavens devils?

[Brother Bob]

I can't believe that some don't believe the apostles were saved. I never heard this before but guess thats why I am on BB. How do you have all those gifts of healing, raising the dead etc, if you just a worldly person. I don't think Judas was ever saved but I do think the rest were. Judas was a devil and picked because he was a devil. We need to get over God using someone like that to fulfill His plan.

 

[LeBuick]

LeBuick: This says to me that because you are walking with Christ or even called a disciple does not mean you are saved. Otherwise we are saying that OSAS is not a fact.

HP: That is a very telling statement. Here we see a clear presupposition that determines how one decides fact from fiction, truth from error. It would seem to me that you need to prove that OSAS is indeed a ‘fact’ first. I have yet to see that accomplished.

As a side note, if one would feel that OSAS is indeed a fact, would you be adverse to me stating, or would you be offended, if I stated that such a notion as OSAS is clearly a Calvinistic notion?

So is this what the discussion is really about? It is not about Judas but this is supposed to be proof where a "saved" person lost their salvation? I and Marcia showed you a verse verifying that disciples does not = saved. Since we have proven disciple does not = saved then I believe the ball is in your court to prove Judas was saved. Careful, looks like Bro Bob had his wheaties this morning.

There is an argument which says Judas was obedient to the will of the father since his actions were prophesied. Problem with that theory is that Man was also prophesied to fall which was why the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world. However, we both know Sin did not save man. Jesus did.

 

[Brother Bob]

Yea, I did overstep my bounds there a little. I really was talking to myself.
If Jesus stood as a slain Lamb from the foundation of he world then the plan was already in place. As God foreknows all things, He knew that Judas would turn out to be a devil and I think chose him because he was, to carry out his betrayal of the Lord. It was in God's plan of Salvation that there would be a betrayal by someone who was a son of perdition. As God foreknows all things He knew it was Judas.

 

[EdSutton]

Careful, looks like Bro Bob had his wheaties this morning.

Head for the hills, every body!! Whaddaya mean I'm already in the hills? OK. Head for the caves!! :smilewinkgrin: :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

[Hope of Glory]

I can't believe that some don't believe the apostles were saved. I never heard this before but guess thats why I am on BB. How do you have all those gifts of healing, raising the dead etc, if you just a worldly person.

Well, up to this point, we agree whole-heartedly, and, I believe, biblically. Not to mention that we are given what a disciple is, and we are told that Judas was a disciple, and the apostles were the elect from among the disciples; they're a special, called-out group from among the disciples. Then, you go on to contradict what you've just stated:

I don't think Judas was ever saved but I do think the rest were. Judas was a devil and picked because he was a devil. We need to get over God using someone like that to fulfill His plan.

I don't see how anyone could doubt that Judas was saved, but became apostate.

That would make the argument, did he lose his spiritual salvation, or did he lose something else?

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
I don't think Judas was ever saved but I do think the rest were. Judas was a devil and picked because he was a devil. We need to get over God using someone like that to fulfill His plan.

I don't see how anyone could doubt that Judas was saved, but became apostate.

That would make the argument, did he lose his spiritual salvation, or did he lose something else?

I don't read where Judas ever did those things,

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
I don't think Judas was ever saved but I do think the rest were. Judas was a devil and picked because he was a devil. We need to get over God using someone like that to fulfill His plan.

I don't see how anyone could doubt that Judas was saved, but became apostate.

That would make the argument, did he lose his spiritual salvation, or did he lose something else?

I don't read where Judas ever did those things, so that is not a contradiction.

Well, HoG; its not like it never happens.
2Cor.11
13: For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14: And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15: Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be

according to their works.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

LeBuick: I and Marcia showed you a verse verifying that disciples does not = saved. Since we have proven disciple does not = saved then I believe the ball is in your court to prove Judas was saved. Careful, looks like Bro Bob had his wheaties this morning.

HP: I must have missed the verification. The verses I saw posted verified nothing IMO.

I am not here to ‘prove’ whether or not Judas was saved. I believe there are indeed some Scriptures that clearly indicate in the end he was indeed lost. One of the verses that would indicate to me that Judas indeed did have a right relationship with the Lord at one time was the one where Jesus said that he had lost none ‘save Judas.’ The other is the following. Ac 1:25 “That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which ‘Judas by transgression fell’,”

Again I am not offering proof, for God alone knows. I am offering what I see to be evidence that at one time he was right with the Lord. Did he lose his salvation? NO, because he had not gained it in its most complete sense. What he did do IMO is fail the probationary period this life had to offer.

 

[LeBuick]

HP: I must have missed the verification. The verses I saw posted verified nothing IMO.

I am not here to ‘prove’ whether or not Judas was saved. I believe there are indeed some Scriptures that clearly indicate in the end he was indeed lost. One of the verses that would indicate to me that Judas indeed did have a right relationship with the Lord at one time was the one where Jesus said that he had lost none ‘save Judas.’ The other is the following. Ac 1:25 “That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which ‘Judas by transgression fell’,”

Again I am not offering proof, for God alone knows. I am offering what I see to be evidence that at one time he was right with the Lord. Did he lose his salvation? NO, because he had not gained it in its most complete sense. What he did do IMO is fail the probationary period this life had to offer.

What this verse says is that a Desciple does not = saved

Jn 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

If you finish reading Act 1:25 you will see where that event lead to choosing Mathias. It appears to me they were wrong for choosing Mathias and could very well been wrong about the status of Judas. I took this verse as giving the benefit of the doubt.

This one you may have a good case

Jn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

All I will add is why Judas was lost, "that the scripture might be fulfilled". In other words, Like Bro Bob said, Judas purpose in life was to betray Jesus and fulfill the scripture. You must be saying God allowed him to be saved so he could betray the savior and be lost???

 

[Marcia]

HP: If one cannot believe one is a true disciple just because he is called a disciple by Christ Himself in the first person standing before you, then how could one ever be sure he was a disciple? What solid evidence would trump Jesus words that you are a disciple? Would doctrinal belief in say OSAS, work in ones favor to establish the real facts in this case?

I think you are imbuing a meaning into disciple that is just not there. We don't even know how many there were. We should get the definition and parameters from the Bible, and if Jn 6.66 says that some disciples left Jesus and walked no more with him, we can reasonably assume they were never saved. Let the Bible give us the meaning. So being a disciple does not mean necessarily saved.

There is a place in John 2 where it says people believed in Jesus because of his miracles. But this does not indicate salvific belief - in fact, the passage seems to indicate the contrary. Jesus "knew what was in man" and it tweren't pretty, friends!


23

Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
24But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
25And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.
Jn 2.23-25

</SPAN>

 

[Marcia]

I can't believe that some don't believe the apostles were saved. I never heard this before but guess thats why I am on BB. How do you have all those gifts of healing, raising the dead etc, if you just a worldly person. I don't think Judas was ever saved but I do think the rest were. Judas was a devil and picked because he was a devil. We need to get over God using someone like that to fulfill His plan.

I never said the apostles weren't saved! I said we don't know when they were saved. But at whatever point it was, Judas was not one of them. Jesus made that crystal clear. No saved person "perishes." No saved person is the "son of perdition" or "doomed to destruction" nor would Jesus say that it would have been better if a believer had never been born! That would be totally contrary to everything the bible tells us about being adopted as children of God (I realize you believe Judas was not saved but I'm just spouting off some more).

Maybe some here are getting disciples mixed up with apostles? Not all disciples were apostles.

 

[BobRyan]

LeBuick: This says to me that because you are walking with Christ or even called a disciple does not mean you are saved. Otherwise we are saying that OSAS is not a fact.

That is correct - OSAS is not a fact.

It is purely man-made tradition taken over Bible fact.

HP: That is a very telling statement. Here we see a clear presupposition that determines how one decides fact from fiction, truth from error. It would seem to me that you need to prove that OSAS is indeed a ‘fact’ first. I have yet to see that accomplished.

In fact - it is impossible since it is an error.

HP
As a side note, if one would feel that OSAS is indeed a fact, would you be adverse to me stating, or would you be offended, if I stated that such a notion as OSAS is clearly a Calvinistic notion?

I believe that is a fact.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[LeBuick]

To keep in line with Sis Marcia, and because we are now on OSAS

Jn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Jesus is saying to the Father, I still have all them that I ever had (the saved) except one. Since Christ is the giver and keeper of salvation, I trust he is keeping a good inventory.

 

[Hope of Glory]

What this verse says is that a Desciple does not = saved

Jn 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

So, you're claiming that being saved requires that you continue walking with him? What other works are required to be saved?

 

[Hope of Glory]

No saved person "perishes."

Only a saved person can perish. An unsaved person is already dead.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Jn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

"Lost" is "apollumi"; perished. Only a saved person can perish.

Does that mean he lost is spiritual salvation?

If so, then the Bible lies: "What must I do to be saved?"

"Belive [aorist; punctiliar action, not linear; it's an event] on the Lord Jesus and you will [indicative; it's something that will happen, without a doubt] be saved."

It doesn't say, "Continue believing and doing good works without doing anything too bad, and you might just sqeak in."

So, what does "perish" mean?

 

[LeBuick]

"Lost" is "apollumi"; perished. Only a saved person can perish.

Does that mean he lost is spiritual salvation?

If so, then the Bible lies: "What must I do to be saved?"

"Belive [aorist; punctiliar action, not linear; it's an event] on the Lord Jesus and you will [indicative; it's something that will happen, without a doubt] be saved."

It doesn't say, "Continue believing and doing good works without doing anything too bad, and you might just sqeak in."

So, what does "perish" mean?

If only the saved can perish the Jn 3:16 is wrong. It says believing will keep you from perishing (shall not perish).

No, being saved doesn't require you continue to "walk" with him, but this is what Jesus said;

Lk 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

LeBuick: If only the saved can perish the Jn 3:16 is wrong. It says believing will keep you from perishing (shall not perish).

HP: That is not what Scripture says in John 3:16. It says “SHOULD not perish.”

 

[Hope of Glory]

If only the saved can perish the Jn 3:16 is wrong. It says believing will keep you from perishing (shall not perish).

No, being saved doesn't require you continue to "walk" with him, but this is what Jesus said;

Lk 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

I highlighted the important words. It's talking about the Kingdom, not spiritual salvation. That's what John 3:16 is talking about as well. That's why "believe" is a present active participle (walking with the Lord) and "not perish" and "have" are subjunctive. If you continue in your walk, you might not perish (lose your life in the age to come; the Kingdom) but may have "aionian" life.

Perishing has to do with losing one's life; one's soul; not his spiritual salvation. And, an unsaved person is already dead in trespasses and sin, and therefore cannot perish.

Salvation is by "believe" in the aorist tense. It's an event. It cannot be stopped, because if you believe and then stop believing, you have believed in the aorist.

However, you can stop believing in the present tense. You can stop walking with the Lord.

But, we are told in the Scriptures that if we believe in the aorist, we will be saved, with no doubts, no if's, no ands, no buts.

"Believe", when used as a present, active, participle, is synonymous with "faith". What happens when we stop being faithful; when we stop walking with the Lord? Does he stop being faithful and let us go to the lake of fire? No. He is always faithful. We will be saved. But, if we stop being faithful, we might lose our life in the age to come.

As saved people, we are accountable for our actions, but that accountability does not extend to losing our spiritual salvation, because that is based on the perfect, finished work of the Lord Jesus, not on our imperfect, human works. But, at the Judgment Seat of Christ, we will receive for our works in the flesh, and that could include losing out completely on the Kingdom and being chastened for 1000 years. That's perishing; "apollumi".

 

[BD17]

I can't believe that some don't believe the apostles were saved. I never heard this before but guess thats why I am on BB. How do you have all those gifts of healing, raising the dead etc, if you just a worldly person. I don't think Judas was ever saved but I do think the rest were. Judas was a devil and picked because he was a devil. We need to get over God using someone like that to fulfill His plan.

Whoa whoa who Bob!!! i thought Judas could have chosen not to betray Jesus. At least since you believe in free-will, that should be the case. Was it fair for God to use Judas to fulfill his plan when Judas did not give God permission to do so?