Hebrews 4:1-11 and the New Christian Sabbath

[scriptmemory]

The Bible says, "every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come"

In the text, "gatherings" is the same as "in store". The answer to the question of who must gather from the text is "every one of you" and not "a box at church."

The command "lay by him in store" clearly says the gathering or storing should take place in advance by every member because they have responsibility to gather or store up their wealth from what God has prospered them so they won't need to liquidate their assets after Paul comes. We should know how it is when we put God second—there's no room for him at all. If they didn't do this at the beginning of the "six days you shall labour" they may have spent it or it's unable to be liquidated at the seventh, and then possibly delay Paul on his journey if they attempt to do it the next work week after he has come and preached.

The key word "that" in "that there be no gatherings when I come" referred them to the ideal time to gather or "lay by him in store" at the very beginning of the work week. Thus "lay by him in store" and "no gathering when I come" are a gathering by individual church members at the outset of their business week.

 

[webdog]

Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

 

[scriptmemory]

Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

"For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect." Hebrews 10:1

In Hebrews 10:1 and Colossians 2:16 we have the ceremonies in the Torah pointing forward to things to come such as ceremonial feasts and sabbaths. The blood of bulls and goats could not save anyone. Those ceremonial laws were not the Ten Commandments and the sabbaths in them were not the fourth commandment Sabbath. There are no sacrificial offerings commanded in the moral law but there is in the ceremonial laws referred to in Hebrews 10:1 and Colossians 2:16. The ceremonial law contained rest days in addition to the Sabbath of the LORD pointing forward to Christ not back to creation like the fourth commandment. These ceremonial sabbaths were done away.

The ceremonial sabbaths and holy days of eating lambs and ceremonially bitter herbs re: their time in Egypt ritualistically were unnecessary pointing forward to the perfect Passover lamb and the reality of Christ who created the world..

The seventh-day Sabbath was given to mankind, not Jews (Adam and Eve) in a perfect world, to commemorate God's authority as Author or Creator of the world. It is a memorial, looking back, is not ceremonial, looking forward and we will be judged by it. Rev. 14:7/4:11; James 2:12

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

GE:

Read the thread Col2{16} ....

 

[BobRyan]

Ok -- thanks to GE for pointing that out. So then -- that means in 1Cor 16:2 we have THIS --

Robertson –
Lay by him in store (par' eautwi titetw thsaurizwn).
By himself, in his home. Treasuring it (cf. Matthew 6:19. for thsaurizw). Have the habit of doing it, titetw (present imperative).


And then we have Dr Walter's statement on Robertson:

“Dr. Robertson is considered one of the greatest Greek grammarians that has ever lived and I will take his word...-thank you any way!”
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1645425&postcount=118

Thus ends the 1Cor 16 issue with Walters.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The Bible says, "every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come"

In the text, "gatherings" is the same as "in store". The answer to the question of who must gather from the text is "every one of you" and not "a box at church."

The command "lay by him in store" clearly says the gathering or storing should take place in advance by every member because they have responsibility to gather or store up their wealth from what God has prospered them so they won't need to liquidate their assets after Paul comes. We should know how it is when we put God second—there's no room for him at all. If they didn't do this at the beginning of the "six days you shall labour" they may have spent it or it's unable to be liquidated at the seventh, and then possibly delay Paul on his journey if they attempt to do it the next work week after he has come and preached.

The key word "that" in "that there be no gatherings when I come" referred them to the ideal time to gather or "lay by him in store" at the very beginning of the work week. Thus "lay by him in store" and "no gathering when I come" are a gathering by individual church members at the outset of their business week.

GE:

Read the thread "Col.2{16}

You're not very precise, but in principle you are correct.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Isn't it funny,
when it's a discussion on Colossians 2, it becomes one on Acts 20:7;
When it's a discussion on Hebrews 4, it becomes one on Colossians 2, and so on.

Scattered brains, shattered arguments.

 

[webdog]

Isn't it funny,
when it's a discussion on Colossians 2, it becomes one on Acts 20:7;
When it's a discussion on Hebrews 4, it becomes one on Colossians 2, and so on.

Scattered brains, shattered arguments.

No, it's called letting Bible explain Bible.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Well, that's a positive and maybe profitable approach. But more difficult to keep on track and to the point. Best time to hunt 'springhaas', is at night with a shotgun... I should adopt the method too... the hares keep still under the sharp light.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

"For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect." Hebrews 10:1
...............

GE:


What FEW people realize, is that even the New Testament 'Law', is but "a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things". What better example can one get than Colossians 2:17 that says exactly that of the New Testament Sabbath?!

Then, what even FEWER people give thought, is the fact that the New Testament 'Law' is but "a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things", is a GOOD thing (in NO way, bad)!

Again, no more beautiful text than Colossians 2 from verse 17 up to and including verse 19! For the REAL ‘FEAST’ of Christian appetite, is Jesus Christ, and the WHOLE SENSE AND PURPOSE of the “SabbathS' feast”, is the feasting on, and feasting – “EATING AND DRINKING” (16) – OF, JESUS CHRIST!

That’s is New Testament ‘keeping’ / ‘celebration’ / ‘observation’ of The Lord’s Day Sabbath of the LORD God “YOUR God”, o Christian man! “For _THUS_, GOD, concerning the SEVENTH DAY spake” and concerning NTHER day, BECAUSE: the ‘grand reason d’etre’: Christ “In the Sabbath’s fullness of day”, from the dead, “ROSE AGAIN”!!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Take that away from the Sabbath Day, and take away completely the Sabbath Day; JUST AS MUCH as to remove and abolish the New Testament Sabbath Day MUST mean to deny Christ all his glory deserved and due.

 

[Dr. Walter]

While in one respect - Judas may be the best way to illustrate your point - I would argue for the "inconvenient details".

As Christ and the disciples pre-cross would represent the church to the pre-cross saints - operating as did the post-Cross church itself. Then just so those who gave to "the church" were first saving at home (so as to HAVE something to give) and then when Christ just so happened to come to their village or town - giving to Judas who then (as did Paul) gave to the poor those moneys collected from others giving to Judas.

Both Judas and Paul took the moneys collected and gave them to the Poor.

Thus in that analogy Judas is serving in the role of the Church itself - just as Paul was. It is Judas and Paul that are giving the money thus contributed to the poor.

But savings did not "magically appear" in a person's hand just because Judas or Paul "showed up". Rather each person obviously had to separate out the finds for giving - alone at home, by himself first so as to have something TO give.

Hence the "actual language" of 1Cor 16.

in Christ,

Bob

Of course, they would have to compile it at home before coming to the assembly to contributue it to the general treasury and that is the idea rather than stowing it away at home for weeks before Paul comes and then Paul going house to house to get what they stowed away! That idea is very impractical and burdensome on Paul.

The idea they each week they brought from home what they could and deposited in the common treasurer or church purse carried by some member like Judas, would mean the money was all collected in one place making it easy for Paul to take the whole collection at once in one place from one person when he came. That is common sense and practical. Your interpretation is impractical and creates GREAT work for Paul to collect all the offering in piece meal here and there traveling all over the city of Corinth.

1 Cor. 16:1-2 institutionalizes the first day of the week as the day of worship when the offering was brought by individuals from their homes and given to the common treasury as an act of worship on the day of worhip.

 

[BobRyan]

1Cor 16 mentions no assembly on week day 1, no gathering on week-day-1 no collection on week-day-1 no "week-day-1 is for worship" and no "week-day-1 is Lord's Day".

And then we have the Bible commentaries and translations telling us at the "Seting aside by himself" action is taking place "at home".

Your appeal to 1Cor 16 appears to be a dead end.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

1Cor 16 mentions no assembly on week day 1, no gathering on week-day-1 no collection on week-day-1 no "week-day-1 is for worship" and no "week-day-1 is Lord's Day".

And then we have the Bible commentaries and translations telling us at the "Seting aside by himself" action is taking place "at home".

Your appeal to 1Cor 16 appears to be a dead end.

in Christ,

Bob

If any man be ignorant let him be ignorant. We are just repeating ourselves and so there is no sense to continue.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

You people are undisciplined!

It's the second --- NO, THE UMPTEENTH --- time I make mention of this.

In the other thread on 'Col.2{16}', everybody started discussing 1Corinthians 16:2.

And now it's 'Hebrews 4' supposed to be, but the only Scripture discussed, is again 1Corinthians 16:2!

Come on!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The following was my last post on the thread 'Col.2{16}....


Dr Walter, it’s a nice study, but you draw unwarranted conclusions, and so spoil the whole thing.

First, your OT examples do not contain any suggestion the bringing into the treasury of the tithes etc. happened on the day of worship (Sabbaths). On the contrary, stuff like “the corn, the new wine, and the oil” were brought into the ‘treasury-room(s)’ more probably a separate “treasury-HOUSE” NOT the actual “house of God” itself. The whole business had nothing to do with either Congregational worship or the Day of Worship except that it was NOT performed on the Day of Worship!

You seem also not to have noticed Malachi says the whole enterprise was going to collapse and be abolished through failure. Due to Israel’s infidelity yes, but nevertheless.

You also fail to see that Malachi specifically talks about dispersed ‘barns’-ordinary all over the countryside --- NOT the temple or at the temple (House of God).

And then of course, you rely on the LXX at the expense of the Hebrew text which unnecessary to mention does not contain the word or concept of a ‘thesaurus’ but plainly speaks of ‘store-room’ or ‘barn’.

You do not pay attention to the finer detail of the Corinthians text either, but invent your own distorted ideas in its stead. Chief of which is “…Once located, Paul merely comes and picks up the special offering from the treasurer without having to track down every member and go to their home.” (Which, by the buy, is self-contradictory of your idea the collections had to be made in the Church on every Sunday of worship!)

No, I see in the context that Paul wants to AVOID sudden and frantic last minute scrambling around for items of charity (mainly money). He expressly says every believer should “work out / calculate / ascertain / do book-keeping” of “what he prospered / was able to give”, and obviously did not want it to be done on the Sabbath Day, and therefore “advised” or “instructed” that it be done -- as one naturally can deduce -- as soon as possible after the Sabbath and before another week with its own challenges confronts everyone. Soon a man won’t know if he’s coming or going, and may make promises he may not be able to keep, or give less than he according to good Christian conscience, should have given.

Now all this turmoil, Paul wanted behind and history when he would arrive in Corinth. Once there, he would also not have liked to be bothered with campaigning or ‘strategies’ to collect or ‘gather in’ items of charity— BECAUSE EXACTLY THAT SORT OF THING WOULD NEVER BE THOUGHT OF when he would gather together with the Congregation to worship on the Sabbath Days he might spend in Corinth. Only when he would LEAVE again for Judea, Paul would pick everything up and oversee its transport to Judea. Everybody might have brought his contribution to the point of Paul’s departure, and that again, exempts the idea of Congregational, weekly, ‘collection’. (‘Kollekte’ in Afrikaans. Horrible thought!)

Please do not FORCE God’s Word for the vain and deceitful ‘holiness’ of Sundays’ worship. Become FREE-FOR-CHRIST!

I said above,

"No, I see in the context that Paul wants to AVOID sudden and frantic last minute scrambling around for items of charity (mainly money). He expressly says every believer should “work out / calculate / ascertain / do book-keeping” of “what he prospered / was able to give”, and obviously did not want it to be done on the Sabbath Day, and therefore “advised” or “instructed” that it be done -- as one naturally can deduce -- as soon as possible after the Sabbath and before another week with its own challenges confronts everyone."

The Acts 20:7 circumstantial context strengthens the impression Paul as it were CUSTOMARILY saved working out / calculating / planning for after the Sabbath Day, and therefore “discussed” “matters” / "business" of his pending journey -- as one naturally can adduce -- as soon as possible after the Sabbath and BEFORE he ventured on his way "on the First Day of the week". It is very clearly so, if one read the chapter further— everything in the end 'worked out as “discussed”'.

AND HAS ANYONE NOTICED THE COMMON FEATURE OF THE COLLECTION IN BOTH 1 CORINTHIANS 16 AND ACTS 20 after verse 7?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Robert Young, of his ‘Analytical Concordance’, “Its great OBJECT, as Tyndale said of his New Testament, is to enable every “PLOUGHBOY” to know more of the Scriptures than the “ancients,” by enabling him at a glance to find out Three Distinct Points— First, what is the original Hebrew or Greek of any ordinary word in his English Bible : Second, What is the literal and primitive meaning of every such original word : and Third, What are thoroughly true and reliable parallel passages.”


Dear Dr Walter, your placing 1Corinthians 16:2 and Malachi 3:10 'parallel', is gross "Error" as the same Dr Young would have said.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The following was my last post on the thread 'Col.2{16}....


Dr Walter, it’s a nice study, but you draw unwarranted conclusions, and so spoil the whole thing.

First, your OT examples do not contain any suggestion the bringing into the treasury of the tithes etc. happened on the day of worship (Sabbaths). On the contrary, stuff like “the corn, the new wine, and the oil” were brought into the ‘treasury-room(s)’ more probably a separate “treasury-HOUSE” NOT the actual “house of God” itself. The whole business had nothing to do with either Congregational worship or the Day of Worship except that it was NOT performed on the Day of Worship!

What do you do with the explicit statement by Nehemiah that the treasury room was built right on to the House of God? Don't you believe that the Sabbath day was the day of public worship at the house of God? Don't you believe that giving of tithes and offerings is an act of public worship?

You seem also not to have noticed Malachi says the whole enterprise was going to collapse and be abolished through failure. Due to Israel’s infidelity yes, but nevertheless.]/QUOTE]

Thank you for admitting it was the practice and only disobedience would discontinue the practice.

You also fail to see that Malachi specifically talks about dispersed ‘barns’-ordinary all over the countryside --- NOT the temple or at the temple (House of God).

That is not true! Malichi 3:10 speaks directly to "Mine house" as the object of bringing in tithes and offerings from the people. This is the temple built in the time of Ezra. This is the temple practice established by Nehemiah with the treasury house ATTACHED to the House of God where tithes and offerings were to be stored and thus "mine house" was also the storehouse.

And then of course, you rely on the LXX at the expense of the Hebrew text which unnecessary to mention does not contain the word or concept of a ‘thesaurus’ but plainly speaks of ‘store-room’ or ‘barn’.

Paul does not use a hebrew term in 1 Cor. 16:2 but a Greek term and it is the same Greek term used in the LXX in Matthew 3:10 for OFFERINGS to be given to God. Biblical context for the "thesurus" used in conjuction with tithes and offerings and used in conjunction with "mine house" is irrefutably established by Nehemiah to be the treasury ATTACHED to the Temple.

You do not pay attention to the finer detail of the Corinthians text either, but invent your own distorted ideas in its stead. Chief of which is “…Once located, Paul merely comes and picks up the special offering from the treasurer without having to track down every member and go to their home.” (Which, by the buy, is self-contradictory of your idea the collections had to be made in the Church on every Sunday of worship!)

Not so! It makes the only practical sense of the passage. It would be impractical and irrational for every member to store them up at home and when Paul comes to go house to house to collect them. Paul is trying to alleviate problems in collection not produce problems. The simplest and most practical understanding of this text is that he wanted each member to bring their offerings every Sunday and put them in the common treasurery in advance of his coming so all he would have to do is go to the person with the community treasurery and take it and go on his way

The Acts 20:7 circumstantial context strengthens the impression Paul as it were CUSTOMARILY saved working out / calculating / planning

I Corinthians 16:1-2 and Acts 20:7 strengthen the custom that Sunday was the day of worship when acts of worship were observed (1) bringing tithes and offerings to God's House; (2) Breaking of bread; (3) preaching the Word.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Dr Walter, you keep on like an old gramophone record that got stuck. 1Corinthians 16:2 and Malachi 3:10 have nothing to do with one another; they are NOT "thoroughly true and reliable parallel passages”. Your association of them is ARTIFICIAL and DESIGNED to strut your FALSE 'Sunday-sabbath'.

That, while you ARROGANTLY PRETEND DEAF AND BLIND to the only Sabbath known by the Scriptures-- both Old and New Testament. God does not speak with split tongue like the devil and his lackeys.

Christ rose from the dead "SABBATH'S-TIME" and that's why "the Seventh Day is the Sabbath of the LORD God". "FOR : God the Seventh Day from all his works RESTED" in Christ while and "WHEN He raised Him from the dead", "IN THE SABBATH'S FULLNESS BEING DAYLIGHT SHINING towards the First Day of the week". 'OPSE DE SABBATOHN TEHI EPIPHOHSKOUSEHI eis mian sabbatohn'.

 

[BobRyan]

I Corinthians 16:1-2 and Acts 20:7 strengthen the custom that Sunday was the day of worship when acts of worship were observed (1) bringing tithes and offerings to God's House; (2) Breaking of bread; (3) preaching the Word.

Hint: there is NO "bringing tithes and offerings into God's house" mentioned in 1Cor 16:1-2.

And certainly not in Acts 20:7.

In Acts 2:46 they "broke bread EVERY day" -- it was NOT a way of saying "any day we break bread we are keeping as a weekly holy day".

In Acts 20:5-6 we see that Paul do NOT travel on holy days (no not even on annual Lev 23 holy days) - yet in Acts 20:7-11 we find all-day travel being the "agenda" for "week-day-one".

And the Saturday evening meeting that we find in Acts 20:7 (which is the evening for week-day-one) was specifically called for a farewell talk given by Paul in advance of his all-day-travel plans for "week day one".

I gotta tell you Walter - pointing out this glaring hole in your proposal just never gets old!

in Christ,

Bob