Hebrews 6:4-6

[psr.2]

We can get into how all of these verses tie in with a lot more verses. You do not have to explain away a verse by well we know once saved always saved!
The bible has to be rightly divided.
I have seen people struggle with these verses who have been saved for years. There is no reason to fear. Just check it out with other scripture.

 

[Charles Meadows]

psr.2,

I find some fault with your conception of salvation...

Many verses in the NT touch on salvation. Each can potentially be used as a "one-liner" to "prove" a point - I fear this is what you are doing. You told me that there is absolutely no "scripture" to back up my statement. I submit to you that the ENTIRETY of scripture backs up that statement. A more full understanding of the nature of salvation can be gained by reading through the gospels and simply listening to all that Jesus says about how WE are to live - not just by reading Ephesians 2:8-9 in a vacuum. Too many Christians are taught (wrongly) to seek God's answers in the bible only in terms of "A scripture".

Do you have "A scripture" to back that up?" The person who sees the bible only as a group of one-liners lacks a good understanding thereof.

I would invite you to delineate your position more precisely; what then IS salvation?

 

[Trotter]

psr.2,

I, too, would welcome serious debate as to the meanings and implications of various bible passages. But, alas, this thread is not one. Thus far you have berated and insulted everyone who disagreed with you. That, I am afraid to tell you, is not debate (no matter what the presidential candidates say).

From what I have learned, the book of Hebrews was written to three audiences. One, those Jews who had accepted Jesus Christ as Savior and Messiah. Two, those Jews who agreed intellectually witht he gospel, but did not yet believe. Third, those Jews that rejected Jesus Christ as Savior and Messiah.

The passage in question:

For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then fall away, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
Hebrews 6:4-6 ESV
is one of those that is pointed at the second group of Jews.

I also realize that you want to avoid a 'version issue', but by disallowing the examination of the underlying Greek, you are making it one.

In CHrist,
Trotter

 

[psr.2]

quote from trotter;
Thus far you have berated and insulted everyone who disagreed with you.

False. I insulted noone. If you are going to that approach then no thank you.
I told someone prior to you don't try to turn this into I am attacking you.
I reported that someone to the moderator for thie actions.
If you would like to discuss the scripture I posted,fine.
If you want to discuss Greek start your own thread for Greek.
Looking forward to hearing from you on this.

 

[Trotter]

I never claimed that you attacked me. I have sat back and read the posts thus far. What I wrote was my honest opinion.

I love debate. I love to argue (my wife will atest to this). But I do not enjoy watching anyone stomp up on someone becasue they do not agree.

So looking to the Greek is out. Is there a restriction as to what translation can be used?

I do not fear your reporting me, as I have said or done nothing that violates the rules of the forum. If I have said or done something that violates the rules, I will be the first one to appologize and seek amends.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[Trotter]

psr.2,

I realize that you are new here (or so I assume, according to your registration date).

These are 'debate' forums. That means that others are allowed to post differing views. While these views make not make a lot of sense, or might make us want to rip their heads off, people are still allowed to post.

A debate means that the opposing sides present their arguements, not one presents and then kicks the legs out from everyone else.

No one can just waltz in and impose their own rules. Not everyone who posts supplies the scriptures to back up what they say. Nor are they required to.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[psr.2]

Quote from Charles;
Quote from Charles: I would argue that those in whom there is no change have never experienced salvation.

Quote from me
Thanks for the reply but there is absolutely no scripture to back it up.
A saved person is just as capable of sinning as a lost person. The only difference is who we yield our members to.

There is what was said by you and I.
I did not say that there was no scripture to back up what you believe about salvation.

I said there is no scripture to back up what you said about no change no salvation.

Now Charles you have accused me of wanting to arguebased on the number of my posts in a day, You have accused me of saying something I did not say,
Now you have a problem with my conception of salvation, You suggest that I do not read scripture in its ENTIRETY, you fear I am reading in a vacuum, you fear I am using one liners to prove my point, you suggest that I do not have a good understanding of the scriptures etc..
You have asked what my position is on salvation.
Does this satisfy you or shall I give more?
"1 Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

I am willing to forgive the way you have talked
to me and I hope that it will not continue.
Good day

 

[psr.2]

Stomping on someone is what you have witnessed is it? Hardly. Thank you for explaing what this board is for. Huh... Boy, I'll have a hard time keeping up with you. Am I "kicking and waltzing"? Hmm is that member I see under your name? sounds like it should read Administrator.
I should think on a bible discussion board people would be happy to back up what they believ with the bible. Unless of course they consider their own opinion higher authority than the bible. Or if they do not know where to find it in the bible. Have you read any of the Why I hate the KJV debate thread? If you want a version fight go there. I am looking for honest discussion of scripture like it says on the title page of the board. You have read that haven't you? As far as liking to argue I don't know if that is necessarily a good trait or something to be boasted about Mr. Trooter

 

[psr.2]

quote from Trotter;
I, too, would welcome serious debate as to the meanings and implications of various bible passages. But, alas, this thread is not one.

Perhaps you should look somewhere else.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by psr.2:
Now you are talking my language.
Hmm Some doctrinal changes here.
Excuse me while I try to catch my breath. I was so over joyed that someone is actually looking at the words that my heart skipped a beat.
Yes so what do you make of 6:1-3?
Some new last days doctrine here huh?
You see eternal security is a very real doctrine for the church age.
It is also a new doctrine when we look at those in the Old Test.
This plan changes inthe last days.
I have been here all day and you are the only one to see it.
Others began and quit in frustration.
What do you say care to go on with this discussion?

Obviuously you did not look at the immediate context when you quoted the first part of Heb. 1. I stated the context and it is none of what you mention. It is not about salvation but about living for Jesus to the max and not vacillating back and forth.

 

[psr.2]

Ok gb I have to admit you lost me.
What are you talking about?

 

[psr.2]

quote from ED;
"There are no saved persons
during the tribulation period wrath judgements."

Well who are the brethren and servants metioned in Rev. 6:10-11

What about the 144,000 in Rev 14?

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by psr.2:
Thanks for the feedback. I don't believe it's quite that easy. Look at the passage.

1.It is impossible
2.They were enlightened,tasted heavenly gift, were made partakers of the Holy Ghost.
These people are definitely saved
You are not a partaker of the Holy Ghost when you are lost.
3.If they fall away (so it is possible)
This is not just back slidden.
4.impossible to renew them again unto repentance.

I believe this passage goes hand in hand with Matt.24:13 "He that shall endure to the end shall be saved."

Dear psr.2, according to vs. 4-6 those having tasted the heavenly gift, if they fall away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance.

To take this to mean that a child of God is or can possibly finally apostasize says they cannot [not even by repentance] be renewed, it is all over, thus, not one of us will be able to witness the fulfillment of Matt. 24.13.

God Bless
Bro.Dallas

 

[Bro Tony]

Bro Dallas,

Long time no hear. Hope all is well. Good to have you back.

Bro Tony

 

[psr.2]

Thanks for the reply.

Personally I am not concerned with what is going on in Matt. 24 where my salvation is concerned.
Jesus is responding to a question about the end of the world in the passage.
:14 says that verse 13 is the gospel of the kingdom.
That is far different than 1 Cor. 15
:15 says when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel.
When is that going to take place?
Right. During the great tribulation.
So all christians prior to the rapture will be in heaven facing our own set of problems at the judgement seat of Christ while all of that is going on down here.
If a person does not endure or falls away they will not have the eternal security we have today.

 

[Matt Black]

psr.2, thus far you have moved the goalposts in this debate several times. I make a reference to OSAS and you smack me down saying this is about Hebrews.You then go on to refer to Matt 24 and make it blatantly clear that it IS about OSAS. Then you have a long go at Bro Ed who is a kind and patient individual and has put up with a lot from you thus far. Finally, you prohibit us from looking at the Greek text of Hebrews, even though a poster has made it clear that one needs to do that to fully understand the nuances of the passage. Then, when Trotter calls you on your ad hominem behaviour, you act all huffy.

Please. lets have a reasoned debate here withless of the ad hominem. ok?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[psr.2]

1. I started this thread with a simple question.
Matt asked me if my question was something
else.
My exact response was "Matt we are discussing
Hebrews."
Now Matt says I smacked him down.
Perhaps I should start a poll and see how
people consider that response a smacking down.

 

[Charles Meadows]

psr.2,

Sounds like the heat in the kitchen is getting to you! This is after all a debate forum.

I didn't accuse you of anything - I simply said I find fault in your conception of salvation, and really of scripture as a whole. In fact I stand by this statement.

You speak as with the assurance of one who has all the answers. You inveigh against those who would adhere to OSAS - and perhaps there IS some presupposition here. I assert that you likewise enter the debate with your own presuppositions.

I asked you to delineate your position because thus far your posts have been a little sketchy as far as WHY you disagree with OSAS.

Consider this...
Jn 3:3 "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except that a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Jesus says that salvation is a new birth. The indwelling of the spirit brings about an irreversible change. Is a new birth something that can be reversed?

I do not accuse you - but I assert that you have been taught a position (namely that OSAS is wrong) and that you are now regurgitating that position. I challenge you to demonstrate how your position makes sense. I know you can quote verses - we all can do that. Can you explain, given what Jesus said about salvation, how salvation can be lost?

 

[psr.2]

quote from Matt;
Then you have a long go at Bro Ed who is a kind and patient individual and has put up with a lot from you thus far

Ed was asked to use scripture and would not. I notfied the moderator and asked him to deal with Ed.
I then notified Ed.

Ed continued to pop in with meaningless lines of no benefit to the topic.

Shall I come to your thread and throw a bunch of junk around? Then we would see how well you handle it.

 

[psr.2]

Matt accused me of being "huffy" with Trooter. Here is exactly what was written by both.

quote from trotter;
Thus far you have berated and insulted everyone who disagreed with you.

quote from psr.2
False. I insulted noone. If you are going to that approach then no thank you.
I told someone prior to you don't try to turn this into I am attacking you.
I reported that someone to the moderator for thie actions.
If you would like to discuss the scripture I posted,fine.
If you want to discuss Greek start your own thread for Greek.
Looking forward to hearing from you on this.

Now Matt, I'm not sure if you were hired to protect these guys from bully posters or if you just took it upon yourself but let's get one thing straight.
We are adults. We are not on the playground in elementary school. With all of the goal post moving and smack me down stuff in your post I was beginning to wonder.
I'll tell you what. Let's go ahead with your wish. We will tie inthe once saved always saved teaching into this thread.
I sense it is a pet of yours and that you probably have some "big guns" to prove your side.
So how bout it?