Hebrews 6:4-6

[psr.2]

quote from tentmaker;
When you say
quote:
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God dealt differently then than he does now.
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You must be very careful. God has revealed himself differently at different times and we have a much more complete revelation of him now than the Old Testament saints did, but God has not changed, the gospel has not changed and God's plan for my salvation is the same as Adam's.

How is your plan of salvation anything like Adams?

Did God have to sacrifice an Animal for a blood sacrifice to cover your sin?

NO.
I know all about typology so don't go there.
Look at the account in Genesis. Animals blood.

 

[psr.2]

Lea here is what is is going on.
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

psr.2

Yes, God did have to make a sacrifice to cover my sin, Jesus Christ. It was his sacrifice that paid for my sins and for Adam's. The animal slain to make Adam's first set of clothes was a type, a picture, an illustration of the sacrifice Jesus would later make, nothing more. Adam's salvation came by believing God and trusting him just like mine.

 

[psr.2]

That makes a nice tidy package but it is not scriptual. I've heard the statement many times but there is no scripture for it.
Now I know that noone gets to heaven but by Christ however the Old Test. saints were kept in paradise until the finished work of clavary.
They did not get to paradise unless the obeyed the Old Test set-up
To say that Adam or any ohter in the Old Test simply trusted Christ is not accurate.

See GAl 3 for proof text
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[psr.2]

Example Old Test sins and forgiveness;

Lev.5:17 And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; though he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity.
18 And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist it not, and it shall be forgiven him.

Now that hardly matches 1 John 1:9

What I am establishing here is that there are divisions in the scripture. Many times people take these as contradictions.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and {then} have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (NASB, 1995)

The very large majority of Christians, Bible scholars, and Christian denominations understand this passage to teach that a true Christian can forfeit his salvation and thus be damned for eternity. This was the unanimous view of the Church for 400 years. At that point in Church history, this view was briefly questioned by a few individuals, but this view very soon once again became the unanimous view of the Church for another 1100 years.

The meaning of Heb. 6:4-6 is explicitly clear—a true Christian can forfeit his salvation and thus be damned for eternity. However, as the doctrine of OSAS rapidly evolved in the 16th century, more and more Christians began to look for ways to explain away the interpretation that was so obvious for 1500 years. A few of those ways have already been mentioned in this thread, but all of them are based at best on faulty exegesis of the Greek text, and more typically on wishful thinking.

We Baptists, of course, ignore the facts regarding Heb. 6:4-6 because we believe in OSAS. Anyone who says that Heb. 6:4-6 says that a Christian can loose his salvation does not understand the Bible.

 

[psr.2]

Hey Craig nice to hear from you. I do not believe that a church age saint can lose their salvation however I do commend you for your understanding of the passage.
Let's talk my brother.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Can you explain, given what Jesus said about salvation, how salvation can be lost?

Salvation is a gift from God. Like all gifts, it can be accepted, rejected, or accepted and subsequently rejected. Those who believe that God hogties Christians so that they can not walk away if they so choose necessarily believe that salvation comes with a huge price tag that the recipient must pay—their free will.

How can someone who is born-again loose their salvation? How can they become un-born-again? Just as the natural man dies if it does not receive the necessary nutrition, so does the spiritual man die if it does not receive the necessary nutrition. Those born-again Christians who walk away from their savior walk away from the source of nutrition, and if they walk away far enough—they die!

But, of course, since I am a Baptist, I have to ignore the facts and believe the modern doctrine of OSAS rather than the 1500-year old historical view of conditional security. The Biblical doctrine of total apostasy can not be true, regardless of what the Bible says:

Apostasy
Described
Deu_13:13; Heb_3:12
Caused by persecution
Mat_24:9-10; Luk_8:13
Caused by worldliness
2Ti_4:10
Guilt and punishment of
Zep_1:4-6; Heb_10:25-31; Heb_10:39; 2Pe_2:17; 2Pe_2:20-22
Cautions against
Heb_3:12; 2Pe_3:17
Shall abound in the latter days
Mat_24:12; 2Th_2:3; 1Ti_4:1-3
See Antichrist
Unclassified scriptures relating to
General references
Deu_32:15; 1Ch_28:9; Isa_1:28; Isa_65:11-16; Jer_17:5-6; Eze_3:20; Eze_18:24; Eze_18:26; Eze_33:12-13; Eze_33:18; Mat_13:20-21; Mar_4:5-17; Luk_8:13; Mat_24:10; Mat_24:12; Luk_11:24-26; Joh_15:6; Act_7:39-43; 1Co_9:27; 2Th_2:3; 2Th_2:11-12; 1Ti_4:1-2; 2Ti_3:1-9; 2Ti_4:3-4; Heb_6:4-8; Heb_10:26-29; 2Pe_2:1; 2Pe_2:15; 2Pe_2:17; 2Pe_2:20-22; 2Pe_3:17; Jud_1:4-6
See Backsliders; Reprobacy
Instances of:
Israelites
Ex 32; Num 14
Saul
1Sa_15:26-29; 1Sa_18:12; 1Sa_28:15; 1Sa_28:18
Amaziah
2Ch_25:14; 2Ch_25:27
Disciples
Joh_6:66
Judas
Mat_26:14-16; Mat_27:3-5; Mar_14:10-11; Luk_22:3-6; Luk_22:47-48; Act_1:16-18
Hymenaeus and Alexander
1Ti_1:19-20
Phygellus and Hermogenes
2Ti_1:15
(from Nave’s Topical Bible) Apostasy

 

[Bro. Jeff]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and {then} have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (NASB, 1995)

The very large majority of Christians, Bible scholars, and Christian denominations understand this passage to teach that a true Christian can forfeit his salvation and thus be damned for eternity. This was the unanimous view of the Church for 400 years.

We Baptists, of course, ignore the facts regarding Heb. 6:4-6 because we believe in OSAS. Anyone who says that Heb. 6:4-6 says that a Christian can loose his salvation does not understand the Bible.

None of that is true and represents only a certain interpretation of the passage.

It's a reference to those who apostatize from the faith.

If you hold that interpretation, one could only be saved once and never again after losing since "it's impossible to renew them to repentance"

 

[Craigbythesea]

Let's talk my brother.

Hi!

 

[psr.2]

Hey Craig good posting! Look me up on some other threads. It's a blessing to have a student of the scriptures on board.

 

[Craigbythesea]

It's a blessing to have a student of the scriptures on board.

I just wish that I was not the only one.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
I just wish that I was not the only one.

Don't forget 1 Kings 19:18.

 

[Marcia]

Show me one person in the Old Testament who was born again. Show me one instance in the Old Testament where a person was told to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved.

Show me one instance of anyone in the Old Testament quoting anything like what you quote for salvation

I agree with you and Scripture that the Gospel was a mystery in the OT. But people were still saved then -- by faith in God.

By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
Heb 11:4-7

Psr2, are you saying that the OT saints were in paradise because they followed the law? This says they were heirs of righteousness (saved) through faith.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Don't forget 1 Kings 19:18.

I believe that I saw on TV that the last of those 7,000 men died a few years ago.

 

[gb93433]

How can someone who claims to know God ever say he never existed?

 

[psr.2]

quote
Psr2, are you saying that the OT saints were in paradise because they followed the law? This says they were heirs of righteousness (saved) through faith.

Where does that passage say that anyone is born again, in Christ etc.

In the O.T there was no spiritual circumcision, no operation made without hands.
In the O.T. a persons soul and body are one that is why if you touched a dead animal your soul was defiled. Even after a sacrifice was made it did not seal you like we are sealed until the day of redemption.
When we are saved our soul is cut loose from the fleh. That is the operation made without hands. That is why when we sin we do not lose our salvation

 

[HankD]

Where does that passage say that anyone is born again, in Christ etc.

In the O.T there was no spiritual circumcision, no operation made without hands.
In the O.T. a persons soul and body are one that is why if you touched a dead animal your soul was defiled. Even after a sacrifice was made it did not seal you like we are sealed until the day of redemption.
When we are saved our soul is cut loose from the fleh. That is the operation made without hands. That is why when we sin we do not lose our salvation

Please provide Scripture to back up all these points.

That is why when we sin we do not lose our salvation

This is why we do not lose our salvation when we sin... John 10:27-30.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
I and my Father are one.

 

[psr.2]

Scripture? Love to.

1. Hank if there is no spiritual circumcision in the O. T. how can there be a scripture to back it up?

2.Num. 9:6 And there were certain men, who were defiled by the dead body of a man, that they could not keep the passover on that day: and they came before Moses and before Aaron on that day:
7 And those men said unto him, We are defiled by the dead body of a man: wherefore are we kept back, that we may not offer an offering of the LORD in his appointed season among the children of Israel?
8 And Moses said unto them, Stand still, and I will hear what the LORD will command concerning you.
9 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
10 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If any man of you or of your posterity shall be unclean by reason of a dead body, or be in a journey afar off, yet he shall keep the passover unto the LORD.
11 The fourteenth day of the second month at even they shall keep it, and eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.

Num 19:11 He that toucheth the dead body of any man shall be unclean seven days.
12 He shall purify himself with it on the third day, and on the seventh day he shall be clean: but if he purify not himself the third day, then the seventh day he shall not be clean.
13 Whosoever toucheth the dead body of any man that is dead, and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from Israel: because the water of separation was not sprinkled upon him, he shall be unclean; his uncleanness is yet upon him.
14 This is the law, when a man dieth in a tent: all that come into the tent, and all that is in the tent, shall be unclean seven days.

Num 19:16 And whosoever toucheth one that is slain with a sword in the open fields, or a dead body, or a bone of a man, or a grave, shall be unclean seven days.
17 And for an unclean person they shall take of the ashes of the burnt heifer of purification for sin, and running water shall be put thereto in a vessel:
18 And a clean person shall take hyssop, and dip it in the water, and sprinkle it upon the tent, and upon all the vessels, and upon the persons that were there, and upon him that touched a bone, or one slain, or one dead, or a grave:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

 

[HankD]

Thank you for your answer psr.2

Related questions because it seems that you are saying that being born after the Spirit did not occur in the OT age.

Do you equate the circumcision of the heart with the "new" birth or the birth after the Spirit?

In what way do you see the word “create” in Psalm 51:10.
Do you relate it to the circumcision of the heart or perhaps the "new" birth?
Was it a proper prayer for David to make being under the Law?

Psalm 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

RE: Isaac and Ishmael...

Galatians 4:28-28
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Does not this Scripture say that Isaac was “born after the Spirit”.
If not how is this passage to be interpreted?

Also…
John 3:
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Why did Jesus expect Nicodemus to know about being “born again”?

Thanks in advance psr.2.

HankD