Hebrews 6:4-6

[Charles Meadows]

In response to what Craig said yesterday...

I DO agree that most modern baptists simply accept OSAS and interpret salient verses in the light of their preformed choices.

I do not however agree that Heb 6:4-6 clearly teaches that salvation can be lost. Verses 7-9: (context!!)

"For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed receiveth blessing from God: but that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected and is nigh unto cursing whose end is to be burned. But beloved we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak."

This taken together with Jesus' multiple teachings concerning salvation (John chapter 3 and 10 to name a few) lead me to believe that salvation IS a permanent change in an individual. And though a man (or woman) may participate in worship or "taste the fruits" only those who truly have the indwelling of the spirit will bear fruit - and God knows the difference.

I also reject the idea of "having A scripture to back something up". Scripture read as a series of one-liners makes no sense.

 

[Artimaeus]

Originally posted by psr.2:
Hebrews 6 is not doctrinally for the church age. Never has been. The context and title is Hebrews.

Yes, it is. The title isn't inspired and even if it was, that is like saying that the book of Philippians is only for those living at Philipi.

There are not any.

Who said there was? I'm sorry, psr2, but I'm getting lost (pun intended) trying to follow what you are saying. What is your main point about Hebrews 6:4-6?

 

[Artimaeus]

Originally posted by psr.2:
Artimaeus? You don't see the relevance of the verse in Rev?

No, I don't see the relevance of "For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." TO THIS DISCUSSION.

 

[Michael52]

psr.2

4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and [then] have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6 (NASB-U)

Since you have encouraged us to stick to Heb 6:4-6, I’ll try to do that. Allow some substitutions to make these verses clearer and simpler (to me anyway).

‘saved’ (or salvation) = ‘have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come’

‘saved’ (or salvation) = ‘repentence’

‘lost’ (or not ‘saved’) = ‘have fallen away’

If one agrees (maybe you don’t) that these substitutions are valid or reasonable then we have:

4For in the case of those who [are]* ‘saved’, 6and [then] ‘lost’, it is impossible to renew them again to [be]* ‘saved’, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (* words added)

This appears to me to be a sequence of events describing states with conditions:

State 1: ‘lost’(#1), the assumed initial state or human condition – then…
State 2: ‘saved’(#1) – then…
State 3: ‘lost’(#2) – then…
State 4: ‘saved’(#2) – then…
State 5: Repeat the sequence to -…
State ‘Infinity’

But State 4 (‘saved’(#2)), and any subsequent State(s), are not allowed because (“since”) it would mean that “they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame”, which is not possible. This condition, given in the text, is what causes State 4 (‘saved’(#2)) to be “impossible”. Assuming, if we are allowed, that Christ was crucified once for all, then this first and only crucifixion (the “last” sacrifice) is only valid for affecting State 2 (‘saved’(#1)) in the sequence.

Without looking at any other scriptures, what may we deduce from this? We can question just how a person arrives at any of these states and what causes the transition from one state to the next. Can we agree that State 1 is because of our sins? If so, how does one go to State 2? Certainly our sins don’t cause this transition. If we assume one is in State 2, however that is brought about, is it reasonable to assume that our sins committed while in this state can cause the transition to State 3? If our sins can cause us to go from State 2 to State 3, then we might ask what particular sins and how many sins are required. If we assume that it only took one, however insignificant, to place us in State 1, then while we are in State 2 we better not commit ANY sins!

Without looking at any other scriptures, and knowing that in any state we find ourselves we WILL sin, then we may deduce from this argument that we damned ourselves initially and left to our own efforts we can not remain un-damned. If we allow that God hates sin and does not want us to commit any sin then we are at God’s mercy. Our only hope is God’s salvation, Jesus Christ. Praise God!

I know this doesn’t answer these questions in the most satisfactory way. Naturally, we can't without looking at any other scriptures. But it does stimulate me to think about the issues. I’m just glad I'm not judged on my ignorance (I hope).

In Christ,
Michael

 

[Artimaeus]

Michael52, interesting way of phrasing it. I enjoyed reading that. Oh, and BTW

 

[psr.2]

Hello again Hank.
quote;
Do you equate the circumcision of the heart with the "new" birth or the birth after the Spirit?

response
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

This is spiritual cicumcision. It puts the flesh apart from the soul. After a person is born again
(a church age doctrine) the sins of the flesh though very real, cannot defile the soul.

quoye;
In what way do you see the word “create” in Psalm 51:10.
Do you relate it to the circumcision of the heart or perhaps the "new" birth?
Was it a proper prayer for David to make being under the Law?

David here is attempting to get right after his adultery and murder.
When discussing David you have to realize that he had a set-up like no other.
David had committed two sins for which there was not sacrifice to receive forgiveness.
Those two sins were to be punished by death.
David was not killed. Why?
Is God unfair? Does God lie? No God dealt differently with David than he did with others.

Was it wrong for David to pray that prayer?
No. Just as it is not wrong for a christian in the church age to pray that prayer when they find their heart has grown cold to the things of God.

quote;
Does not this Scripture say that Isaac was “born after the Spirit”.
If not how is this passage to be interpreted?

The context is showing that the covenant had changed. It was no longer by the law but some were clinging to the ways of the law and condemning those who were not.

The born of the Spirit in the reference goes back to the promise not to John 3.

quote;
Why did Jesus expect Nicodemus to know about being “born again”?

Great question. You are thinking. I appreciate the fact that you don't just hit and run.

The key to what took place with Jesus and Nicodemus was in the two verses following. Look carefully.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

"even so MUST the son of man be lifted up"

"THAT whosoever...

The words are vital. Jesus is telling him that it MUST be done it hasn't yet.
He then says "That"

Nicodemus was already a pharisee, keeping the law and doing what the O.T. set-up commanded.
Jesus knew that what he had told him would come back to him after the crucifixion took place.

 

[psr.2]

Michael are you reading any of the thread? There is a ton of scripture on it.
Why replace words the text is so plain?
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
It IS IMPOSSIBLE
Impossible= incapable of existing or taking place. Contrary to fact or reality etc.

Now even if you question what some of it might mean there is no doubt who is partaker of the Holy Ghost. That is a saved person.

"if they shall fall away"

if= in the event that;in case etc.

"to renew them"

renew=restore to a former sound condition,to repeat etc.

I know this is not applied to a church age saint but the book doctrinally is to people going through the trib.

 

[HankD]

Thanks for the responses psr.2.
I need to think about your answers.
Basically I disagree that “born again” didn’t happen before the New Covenant.

I am willing to search the Scriptures however and I have had another thought since my last post…

Jesus talking with Nicodemus…

John 3:3-6
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Then on another occasion He says this to other Pharisees…

Luke 13:28
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

In this passage we see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God. However, Jesus said that the only way to get into the Kingdom of God is to be “born again” or “born of the Spirit”.

Are these mentioned above “born again” but at a later date or what is your view here?

Thanks.

HankD

 

[Michael52]

Originally posted by Artimaeus:
Michael52, interesting way of phrasing it. I enjoyed reading that. Oh, and BTW

Artimaeus

Thanks. I'm blessed (cursed?) with a technical way of thinking and looking at things. When I try to write or speak, many times it comes out reading and sounding like a computer program or a technical specification. I can't help it - my brain is just "wired" that way. The wonderful people in my church just smile and shake my hand; God bless them!

Personally, I think the Heb 6:4-6 passage poses no problem for "eternal security", especially when read with Heb 6:7-12 in context. We have no power for any good thing, unless it comes from the Lord.

In Christ,
Michael

 

[psr.2]

quote;
Then on another occasion He says this to other Pharisees…

Luke 13:28
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

In this passage we see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God. However, Jesus said that the only way to get into the Kingdom of God is to be “born again” or “born of the Spirit”.

Are these mentioned above “born again” but at a later date or what is your view here?

Excellent work Hank!
Yes the O.T. saints were taken to heaven only after the work of the cross was finished.
The Pharisees are still bickering about the Sabbath and the Lord lets them have it.
Great work Hank.

 

[psr.2]

quote;
Personally, I think the Heb 6:4-6 passage poses no problem for "eternal security", especially when read with Heb 6:7-12 in context. We have no power for any good thing, unless it comes from the Lord.

Michael you are missing the entire point. The passage has nothing to do with the eternal security of a church age saint. The book of Hebrews is doctrinaly to the Hebrews. We can use it for devotional but not doctrinal.

See Heb.3:6 "6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end."

There it is in black and white just like in Matt.
We are his "if" we hold fast...
Does that sound anything like John 1:12
"12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"

Church age saints are the sons of God by trusting Christ as their Saviour. Eternally secure. Is that what you just read in Hebrews? No.

 

[Michael52]

Originally posted by psr.2:
Michael are you reading any of the thread? There is a ton of scripture on it.
...
Now even if you question what some of it might mean there is no doubt who is partaker of the Holy Ghost. That is a saved person.
...

psr.2

I've read every word of this thread.

Did you read and follow what I wrote. I'm not sure its much different from what you stated. I think I understand what you are saying. I've not questioned what anything means in Heb 6:4-6, except to the extent of making suppositions that you or others, may or may not agree with. It helps if everyone is making the same assumptions from which to base their arguments.

You seem to be making some conclusions from Heb 6:4-6 alone that I and others don't (or can't, won't) make. Of course, you could be right.

In Christ,
Michael

 

[psr.2]

Michael look in Hebrews 3:8-9
"8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years."

Now unless you are Jewish your fathers did not wander in the wilderness spoken of hereIt is very important to see who God is speaking to and what time frame is being spoken of or we fall into the snare of "well the bible teaches the same thing from "Gen-Rev"
While the entire bible does come together there are some great divisions that must be made.

As I said noone reading this is a Sabbath observing pork abstaing ,law keeping Jew.
Why? Things have changed. That set-up comes back in the future but not until we the body of Christ is gone.
Col. 216 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

 

[psr.2]

quote;
You seem to be making some conclusions from Heb 6:4-6 alone that I and others don't (or can't, won't) make. Of course, you could be right.

Michael I have placed scripture together in this thread from all throughout the bible. Why do you insist that I am only using Heb?

 

[HankD]

Great work Hank.

Thanks.

HankD

 

[Michael52]

psr.2

I applaud you for at least one thing. You can respond very fast and with clarity to multiple posters. I'm simply not that gifted.

Please pardon me, for now. I need to get ready for VBS.

In Christ,
Michael

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by psr.2:
quote
Psr2, are you saying that the OT saints were in paradise because they followed the law? This says they were heirs of righteousness (saved) through faith.

Where does that passage say that anyone is born again, in Christ etc.

In the O.T there was no spiritual circumcision, no operation made without hands.
In the O.T. a persons soul and body are one that is why if you touched a dead animal your soul was defiled. Even after a sacrifice was made it did not seal you like we are sealed until the day of redemption.
When we are saved our soul is cut loose from the fleh. That is the operation made without hands. That is why when we sin we do not lose our salvation

I didn't say the passage said they were born again; it doesn't. But they were saved by faith and righteousness was imputed to them. Basically, although they could not be born again the way we can be today, they could be saved by their faith in God. In both cases, salvation results.

I am not sure I agree about the body and soul thing. I don't think their flesh defiled the soul; I think that God was allowing judgment to fall on them for violating the laws. This showed how clear God was about his laws, about purity, and about setting his people apart from the pagan nations. I think touching the dead animal, for example, did not really defile the soul but it was a picture of the defilement of sin.

The difference is that we are regenerated and have the HS indwelling us which the OT saints could not have (as far as permanent indwelling of the HS goes). When we sin we don't lose our salvation because we are "sealed" by the HS and born again, and that cannot be reversed since it is a supernatural act of God.

 

[psr.2]

quote;
I didn't say the passage said they were born again; it doesn't. But they were saved by faith and righteousness was imputed to them.

Exactly. example Abraham's faith was imputed to him for righteousness.
faith in what? He believed God's promise about his seed.
There were works involved also
James 2: 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

The reference is back to Gen where Abraham believed the promise. It had nothing to do with looking forward to the cross.
Now Abraham got to heaven because of the finished work of Christ but this righteousness got him to paradise until then.

quote;
I am not sure I agree about the body and soul thing. I don't think their flesh defiled the soul; I think that God was allowing judgment to fall on them for violating the laws. This showed how clear God was about his laws, about purity, and about setting his people apart from the pagan nations. I think touching the dead animal, for example, did not really defile the soul but it was a picture of the defilement of sin.

It's a picture for us because we have a completed revelation. It was doctrine for them.

Lev. 5:2 " Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty.

Your soul cannot touch anything because it is not connected to your flesh. That is not the case here. You cannot match that verse with anything dealing with a church age saint.

I appreciate your input

 

[Marcia]

The reference is back to Gen where Abraham believed the promise. It had nothing to do with looking forward to the cross.
Now Abraham got to heaven because of the finished work of Christ but this righteousness got him to paradise until then.

(BTW, I never said anything about looking forward to the cross.)

I do maintain that the righteousness of Abraham was solely by faith. The James passage is merely showing that works are the result of faith. It was Abraham's faith that caused him to offer Isaac, so he was justified before God by this act because it was his faith that caused him to do it. Since verse 23 and the Hebrews 11 passage both affirm that Abraham was justified by faith, there cannot be any works involved. Offering Isaac was a product of his faith, and that is part of James' message that true faith results in works.

No one in the OT could follow the law completely; it was always faith in God, by God's grace, that saved them. I think this is the point of the Hebrews 11 passage.

 

[psr.2]

Let me start by saying that this discussion has been a blessing to me. I get so tired of the spit slinging name calling junk and truly enjoy discussing scripture. We do not have to agree but at least we both post scripture as to why.

I know you did not say lookig forward. I was just pointing out that that is the standard answer from most people on this subject.