Hebrews 6:4-6

[Charles Meadows]

psr.2 said..

"The passage has nothing to do with the eternal security of a church age saint. The book of Hebrews is doctrinaly to the Hebrews. We can use it for devotional but not doctrinal."

That at least makes sense within your position. I personally am not a dispensationalist and thus don't subscribe to the whole premill eschatology - but I really am uncomfortable with the notion that a book, or even certain verses, are ONLY for the "postchurch age" or ONLY for the kingdom. I find that very unseemly.

 

[psr.2]

Well Charles consider this;

Col. 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

There is a statement about a future set-up that will be identical to the Old. Test. set-up.
That verse is not doctrinal to anyone in the church age and that is why God said a "shadow of things to come" So the keeping of the Sabbath, new moons, and holy days are all doctrinal practices in the future.

That my brother is not unseemly it is scriptual.Thank you for the question. I hope the answer helps.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by psr.2:
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


This verse appears to say that if a person messes up after they get saved they cannot get saved again.
Then what about I John 1:9?
" If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Yes, verse 4 does say that if a person "falls away," they can not get saved again.

1 John 1:9 says nothing about anyone “falling away.”

1 John 1:9. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (NASB, 1995)

1 John 1:9 is very often quoted entirely out of context, resulting in serious misunderstandings of the passage. Here is the whole chapter:

1. What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life--
2. and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us--
3. what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.
4. These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.
God Is Light
5. This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.
6. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
7. but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Dan Todd:
I believe the writer of Hebrews is presenting us with a hypothetical situation.

If it were possible to lose one's salvation - being saved a second time would not be possible - because it would mean crucifying Christ a second time!

But if you are truly saved - it is impossible to lose your salvation.

Romans 8:1, 35, 38-39:

1. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Amen, Brother Dan -- Preach it!

Thank you, Brother Dan.
This is the complete answer to the question(s)
posed in the lead-in post. The topic was
fully settled on page one.

Why are we in page ten?

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dan Todd:
I believe the writer of Hebrews is presenting us with a hypothetical situation.

If it were possible to lose one's salvation - being saved a second time would not be possible - because it would mean crucifying Christ a second time!

But if you are truly saved - it is impossible to lose your salvation.

Romans 8:1, 35, 38-39:

1. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Amen, Brother Dan -- Preach it!

Thank you, Brother Dan.
This is the complete answer to the question(s)
posed in the lead-in post. The topic was
fully settled on page one.

Why are we in page ten? </font>[/QUOTE]Nonsense! When you disagree with the Bible, you say that its message is hypothetical. Please tell us where in this epistle the writer of this epistle says that you are to take him hypothetically rather than for what he really wrote?

 

[Lacy Evans]

The falling away is literal. It is not a loss of salvation. If you want to know what a Christian can fall away from (and when it occurs) read chapter 3 & 4 of Hebrews.

Lacy

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
The falling away is literal. It is not a loss of salvation. If you want to know what a Christian can fall away from (and when it occurs) read chapter 3 & 4 of Hebrews.

Lacy

Amen, Brother Lacy Evans -- Preach it!

CraigBytheSea: "Nonsense! When you disagree with the Bible, you say that its message is hypothetical. "

I had a much better explanation than
Dan. But my explanation was on page two.
I explained without using the "H" word
as did Brother Dan.

BTW, i did not and do and
will not "disagee with the Bible".
In fact, it is an insult of me to say I did.
What I did was to explain in today's terms what
the author of Hebrews was saying.
If nobody wants to try to understand Greek
logic -- that is no skin off my nose. But please
refrain from dising me over it. I'm sure others
(like Bro Dan tryed to do) can explain better than
i can (some are tranined in communication).

I'm really having a hard time coming to grip with
what is so explosively to be rejected in my explanation.

Psr.2 says: "Ed please stick to scripture if we
are to have any kind of bible discussion."

Since when is discussing the meaning that a scriptures
has a departure (an unsticking) from the scripture?

When i give my best "50 years in the making" explanation
of the meaning of Matthew 25:13, I'm rebuked with:

"Ed, as for you reply to my statement on Matt. 23;
Once again I ask that you would use scripture to discuss this."

What is he talking about?

From which scripture does Psr.2 get this
sarcasm: "WOW Ed, that was scriptually deep!"?

Why is it i'm feeling i'm a lion in a
den of Daniels?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Heb 6:4-6 refers to people who were never truly saved. They heard the truth, saw the works, experienced some of the good things of the gospel, and then repudiated it and committed the sin of apostasy. For them, it is impossible to come back to the place of repentance.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Ed,

Thank you for bringing to my attention that I offended you by my choice of words. I am very sorry for that. I love you as a brother for whom Christ died, and I know that you do not disagree with the Bible, but only with the interpretation of the Bible by other men. May our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ richly bless you in all good things according to his divine mercies.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Heb 6:4-6 refers to people who were never truly saved. They heard the truth, saw the works, experienced some of the good things of the gospel, and then repudiated it and committed the sin of apostasy. For them, it is impossible to come back to the place of repentance.

4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (NASB, 1995)

Pastor Larry,

Thank you for sharing with us this particular interpretation. It is, of course, one of the most common interpretations put forward during the last few centuries by those who hold to the doctrine of OSAS. Personally, however, I hold to the ante-Nicene view that this passage speaks of those who were truly saved but who have fallen away, and not just in part as many other proponents of OSAS believe, but fallen from grace, fallen from their relationship with Christ, fallen from the communion of the saints.

I have here in my library several commentaries on Hebrews written by Baptists and other believers in the doctrine of OSAS who write that there can be no doubt that the writer of this epistle is speaking of true Christians. They cite from early church documents and other sources the expressions used here:

• those who have once been enlightened
• have tasted of the heavenly gift
• have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit
• have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come

and argue that in early Christian literature these phrases are used exclusively as descriptions for Christians and are found in very early church liturgies. They then, of course, argue that those spoken of here did not fall from grace, but only from some sort of standing or position or state or whatever expression explains away the difficulty.

I also have here in my library several commentaies on Hebrews written by Baptists and other believers in the doctrine of OSAS who write that there can be no doubt that the writer of this epistle is speaking of person who have not yet come to a saving knowledge of Christ and who fall away from whatever enlightenment they may have had.

However, we do not find either of these interpretations of Hebrew in the commentaries written before the doctrine of OSAS became popular in some segments of the Church. Therefore, I believe that we as Baptists need to make it very clear to those whom we teach that interpretations of Hebrews 6 that reflect the view of OSAS are relatively new views, and views which are contrary to the views of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers and of the larger part of the Church today. Indeed, those whom we teach should be taught to study this passage very carefully for themselves, lest we become responsible for them believing a false doctrine. And of course this must apply to all of the Scriptures.

 

[Lacy Evans]

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

If they aren't saved, then none of us are.

Lacy

 

[psr.2]

quote;
Heb 6:4-6 refers to people who were never truly saved. They heard the truth, saw the works, experienced some of the good things of the gospel, and then repudiated it and committed the sin of apostasy. For them, it is impossible to come back to the place of repentance.

That is not a correct interpretation of the scripture. The people mentioned in the verse have been partakers of the Holy Ghost and only a saved person is a partaker of the Holy Ghost.
Just like the people in the following verse they had it taken away.

Rev. 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

The bible means what it says and says what it means.Even if it is contrary to the traditional things taught by men.

I am encouraged by the fact that some of the people that spend so much time debating versions stopped by. However we must not force the scripture to say something it doesn't because of our belief. The scripture is plain.

 

[HankD]

The people mentioned in the verse have been partakers of the Holy Ghost and only a saved person is a partaker of the Holy Ghost.

Not necessarily. Jesus told us that He would send the Spirit of truth into the world to, among other things, "reprove the world of sin".

John 16:5
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

To me these are they. Those who are reproved or convicted of sin by the Spirit of truth and subsequently fall away, have been partakers of the Holy Ghost in conviction of sin but having fallen away, the Spirit will never again return to them.


Acts 24
25 And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.
...
27 But after two years Porcius Festus came into Felix' room: and Felix, willing to shew the Jews a pleasure, left Paul bound.

HankD

 

[Charles Meadows]

This certainly is a tough verse all things considered...

I still think that generally a person who has been "saved" has been changed - permanently. Jesus' words in Jn 5:24, Jn 6:37, and Jn 10:29 seem to tell us that being saved is something permanent. Certainly salvation is not something which can just be lost - and as such I don't think Hebrews 6 is saying that it can be lost necessarily. Particularly I think the idea that "backsliding" can result in loss of salvation is misguided.

A reasonable question, I think, is whether or not a person can actively RENOUNCE Christ and as such lose salvation. The apocryphal testaments about Peter speak of Simon Magus partaking in fellowship and then becoming apostate. This is not scriptural but may give a hint as to the early church mindset. Obviously Hebrews 6:4, and to a certain extent 10:26, are talking about something severe. I think the best glimpse of how to interpret 6:4 comes in the following verses. Verses 7 and 8 refer to the earth bringing forth herbs as well as thorns when given the rain. Verse 11 speaks about "diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end." It seems that the writer is familiar with "Christians" who profess belief and share in fellowship but the "fall away". As such it is reasonable to conclude that these people probably never were truly "of Christ" since their "fruit" showed otherwise.

I would conclude that it is at least extremely difficult, and perhaps impossible, for one to truly lose salvation IF that person truly was saved. Consider that Christ said that He will tell some people that He "never knew them" at judgment.

Regarding Craig's point about the anti-Nicene fathers being in favor of this verse referring to a loss of salvation I would add the caveat that many of these guys had some fairly individual, and often unscriptural, interpretations. Tertullian himself believed that Heb 6:4 specifically referred to sexual sins.

 

[Lacy Evans]

In my opinion, the people warned here are clearly saved and the context of Hebrews shows that the falling away is a serious (and real)possibility which has absolutely nothing to do with salvation. read Hebrews 3:7-end and Hebrews 4:1-11. It is very clear that this verse is warning real christians of real loss (of rest, of entering in, of inheriting the reward). Not every thing is about salvation. In fact very little in the Bible is about salvation. This whole book is about holy living motivated by REAL reward and REAL loss.

Lacy

 

[Charles Meadows]

But Lacy,

The verse does refer to "crucifying Him again". The crucifixion was for salvation for mankind. I personally do not agree with the idea of some people getting more rewards in heaven. Jesus showed us in the parable of the vineyard that the reward is the same for all.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Ed,

Thank you for bringing to my attention that I offended you by my choice of words. I am very sorry for that. I love you as a brother for whom Christ died, and I know that you do not disagree with the Bible, but only with the interpretation of the Bible by other men. May our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ richly bless you in all good things according to his divine mercies.

Thank you Brother CraigbytheSea. I perceive you are a gentleman
as well as a scholar. May God's blessings
flow down upon you in triple portions as
that which you prayed for me. Amen.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Charles Meadows wrote:

Regarding Craig's point about the anti-Nicene fathers being in favor of this verse referring to a loss of salvation I would add the caveat that many of these guys had some fairly individual, and often unscriptural, interpretations. Tertullian himself believed that Heb 6:4 specifically referred to sexual sins.

First of all, Dr. Meadows, please allow me to tell you that I find it a privilege to be able to participate in the same thread with a man of your learning and Christian character. Nonetheless, I find it needful for me to post what Tertullian actually had to say about Hebrew 6:4-6:

"The discipline, therefore, of the apostles properly (so called), indeed, instructs and determinately directs, as a principal point, the overseer of all sanctity as regards the temple of God to the universal eradication of every sacrilegious outrage upon modesty, without any mention of restoration. I wish, however, redundantly to superadd the testimony likewise of one particular comrade of the apostles, — (a testimony) aptly suited for confirming, by most proximate right, the discipline of his masters. For there is extant withal an Epistle to the Hebrews under the name of Barnabas — a man sufficiently accredited by God, as being one whom Paul has stationed next to himself in the uninterrupted observance of abstinence: "Or else, I alone and Barnabas, have not we the power of working?" And, of course, the Epistle of Barnabas is more generally received among the Churches than that apocryphal "Shepherd" of adulterers. Warning, accordingly, the disciples to omit all first principles, and strive rather after perfection, and not lay again the foundations of repentance from the works of the dead, he says: "For impossible it is that they who have once been illuminated, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have participated in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the word of God and found it sweet, when they shall — their age already setting — have fallen away, should be again recalled unto repentance, crucifying again for themselves the Son of God, and dishonouring Him." "For the earth which hath drunk the rain often descending upon it, and hath borne grass apt for them on whose account it is tilled withal, attaineth God's blessing; but if it bring forth thorns, it is reprobate, and nighest to cursing, whose end is (doomed) unto utter burning." He who learnt this from apostles, and taught it with apostles, never knew of any "second repentance" promised by apostles to the adulterer and fornicator.” Tertullian “On Modesty,” chapter 20.

We see here that Tertullian did not write that Heb. 6:4-6 specifically refers to sexual sins. What he did write is that Heb. 6:4-6 applies to sexual sins. There is no implication here that Heb. 6:4-6 does not apply to a wide range of other sins as well.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Thank you Brother CraigbytheSea. I perceive you are a gentleman
as well as a scholar. May God's blessings
flow down upon you in triple portions as
that which you prayed for me. Amen.

Brother Ed,

I perceive that you are a good judge of both character

and scholarship

. Thank you for your post and your prayer.

[ June 27, 2004, 11:53 PM: Message edited by: Craigbythesea ]

 

[Craigbythesea]

In my opinion, the people warned here are clearly saved and the context of Hebrews shows that the falling away is a serious (and real)possibility which has absolutely nothing to do with salvation.

Brother Lacy,

This passage has everything to do with salvation. Or, to be more precise, it has to do with having it and then loosing it. If it were not for the encroachment of the doctrine of OSAS into parts of the Church, no one would have ever questioned this interpretation.