Hebrews 6:4-6

[Pastor Larry]

I appreciate you response Charles. What you said seemed a little strange to me, but I wasn't trying to pigeonhole you with it.

LEt me ask you this: Is the God of Genesis and the God of Isaiah two different Gods? (Of course not, that question was rhetorical -- here is the real one). If they both talk about the same God, won't the information taught in Genesis correlate with what is taught in Isaiah? I would say it would have to. All systematic theology does it correlate the truth about God no matter which author it comes from. I think a "defined" God is certainly a benefit. I think it is what he want, since he told us so much about himself. I do reject the kind of philosophical theology that gets away from Scripture. And I do agree that we should not read more into the text than is there, at least dogmatically. But a solid exegetical systematic theology is, to me, an absolute necessity for proper exegesis.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Here is an interesting quote from an anonymous 3rd Century writer:

“For any one of us will hold it necessary, that whatever is the last thing to be found in a man in this respect, is that whereby he must be judged, all those thing which he has previously done being wiped away and obliterated. And therefore, although in martyrdom there is so great a change of things in a moment of time, that in a very rapid case all things may be changed; let nobody flatter himself who has lost occasion of a glorious salvation, if by chance he has excluded himself therefrom by his own fault; even as that wife of Lot, who in a similar manner in time of trouble only, contrary to the angel’s command, looked behind her, and she became a pillar of salt. On which principle also, that heretic who, by confessing Christ’s name is put to death, can subsequently correct nothing, if he should have thought anything erroneously of God or of Christ, although by believing on another God or on another Christ he has deceived himself: he is not a confessor of Christ, but in the name only of Christ; since also the apostle goes on to say, “And if I shall give up my body so that I may be burt up with fire, but have not love, I profit nothing.” Because by this deed he profits nothing who has not the love of that God and Christ who is announced by the law and the prophets and in the Gospel in this manner: “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God, with all thy heart, and with all thy mind, and with all thy thought; and thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. For on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets;”—even as John the evangelist said, “And every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God; for God is love;” even as God also says, “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every one that believeth on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life,”—as it manifestly appears that he who has not in him this love, of loving us and of being loved by us, profits nothing by an empty confession and passion, except that thereby it appears and is plain that a heretic who believes on another God, or receives another Christ than Him whom the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament manifestly declare, which announce without any obscurity the Father omnipotent, Creator of all things, and His Son. For it shall happen to them as to one who expects salvation from another God. Then, finally, contrary to their notion, they are condemned to eternal punishment by Christ, the Son of God the Father omnipotent, the Creator whom they have blasphemed, when God shall begin to judge the hidden things of men according to the Gospel by Christ Jesus, because they did not believe in Him, although they were washed in His name.” (Anonymous 3rd Century writer contemporary with Cyprian and Novatian: A Treatise on Re-Baptism)

 

[Craigbythesea]

In any event I do not think Heb 6:4 is even attempting to answer this question. Heb 6:7-9 make this clear.

1. Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2. of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.
3. And this we will do, if God permits.
4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9. But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.
10. For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints.
11. And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end,
12. so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises. (NASB, 1995)

I disagree. Useful vegetation “receives a blessing from God.” But if that vegetation should yield “thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.” There is not a change in species here, the same species is in view in both vs. 7 & 8. It is the same vegetation, but in verse 8 it becomes useless and brings forth thorns and thistles. In verse 9, the writer says that he is persuaded that his readers will not do that, nonetheless he warns them of the danger. In verse 10, the writer reminds his readers of God’s faithfulness; God will never abandon those are useful to Him. In verse 11, the writer expresses his desire that each one of his readers show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end,” (obviously others do not realize the full assurance of hope until the end). In verse 12, the writer explains the need for the diligence on the part of his readers, “so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.” The promises of God are inherited through faith and patience, through continuing in the faith, regardless of circumstances. Col. 1:21-23.

21. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22. yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--
23. if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

 

[HankD]

God will never abandon those are useful to Him.

Dear brother Craig, FWIW, this statement really troubles me.

Does this mean that when I (or anyone) become of no more use to God He throws us away?

HankD

 

[Charles Meadows]

Craig,

I think verses 7-9 show us that what the author is thinking about is those who never really were "Christ's" to begin with. Whether or not the author thinks salvation can be lost - I don't think that's what he's talking about here.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Without systematic theology, you end up with a bunch of brush piles of theology that don't fit together. Lack of systematic is what leads to false doctrine. Biblical theology is a necessary step on teh road to systematic, but you cannot stop that short. You end up out in the wilderness without direction.

If you interpret scripture in light of its historical context then you do not have a bunch of brush piles. The problem with so many systematic theologies is they do not take into account the historical context. When one goes from a systematic theology and tries to interpret scripture they end up with loads of problems and a pile of eisegesis. For example if you take a systematic theology on salvation and try to plug it back into 1 Peter you have utter confusion trying to correctly interpret 1 Peter and his theology of salvation. I cannot think of a single time in scripture where a systematic theology is referenced. But rather passages of scripture are referenced.

 

[HankD]

I cannot think of a single time in scripture where a systematic theology is referenced.

Acts 23:
7 And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided.
8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.

HankD

 

[Pastor Larry]

If you interpret scripture in light of its historical context then you do not have a bunch of brush piles.

Historical context doesn't really have anything at all to do with it. What systematic does is place something in the canonical context. In other words, it interprets Scripture in light of Scripture. Failure to do that leads to brush piles that don't fit together, and a contradictory truth system (an oxymoron).

The problem with so many systematic theologies is they do not take into account the historical context. When one goes from a systematic theology and tries to interpret scripture they end up with loads of problems and a pile of eisegesis. For example if you take a systematic theology on salvation and try to plug it back into 1 Peter you have utter confusion trying to correctly interpret 1 Peter and his theology of salvation.

I don't understand what you are trying to say. A systematic theologyon salvation is going to incorporate what Peter teaches about salvation. And we know that what Peter teaches is not contradicting what anyone else teaches about salvation. The point of systematizing it is so that we can reconcile statements of Peter with statements of Paul and John, etc.

I cannot think of a single time in scripture where a systematic theology is referenced. But rather passages of scripture are referenced.

And for what reason are they referenced? To plug the truth of the passage into a new situation.

If you ask the question, "What does the Bible teach about ______________?" then you have to have systematic theology. It's that simple. For instance, if someone says "What does the Bible teach about angels?" you don't have one single passage you go to. You have a lot of passages you go to, and you show the complete teaching of the Bible on angels. That is systematic theology.

 

[Preacher Ron]

Originally posted by psr.2:
If a saved person during the trb. takes the 666 mark they lose their salvation.

When you say a saved person during the trb. what do you mean?

What makes you think that someone that has been saved is gone to go through the trb. in the first place?

If you look in the 4th chapter of Rev. the Church is already gone.

One more thing how do know that the mark is 666? the bible says that 666 is the number of his name, that does not mean that the mark is gone to be the numbers 666, or anyother numbers for that matter.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Better yet, what makes you think they had their salvation??

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by HankD:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />God will never abandon those are useful to Him.

Dear brother Craig, FWIW, this statement really troubles me.

Does this mean that when I (or anyone) become of no more use to God He throws us away?

HankD </font>[/QUOTE]Heb. 6:7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;

This particular verse that I was commenting on does not promise anything at all to anyone who is not useful to God. Does that mean that those Christians who (do to illness, for example) are not be able to function at all are no longer the subject of the blessings of God? This particular verse does not answer such questions. It only promises blessing to those who are useful.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Heb. 6:4-6:

4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (NASB, 1995)

• those who have once been enlightened
• have tasted of the heavenly gift
• have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit
• have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come

It has been said that this description of those who have been saved is the very most clear description of such persons found anywhere in the whole of Scripture. And yet, with the onslaught of John Calvin upon the body of Christ, even this clearest of the clear descriptions of those who have been saved is now thought by some to be a description of persons who have never been saved and who are sinners damned to hell for eternity. Of all the ironical misunderstandings of the Holy Scriptures, this is perhaps both the most ironical and the most dangerous misunderstanding of all time, a misunderstanding that has resulted in the damnation of countless souls who otherwise would have heard the warning from the Word of God and turned from their sins.

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

 

[Charles Meadows]

I still assert that the following verses (7-9) show us that these were never really good fertile ground to begin with. The fact that bringing them back would shame Christ is further proof that these are not an apostate believers but rather those who tasted of the goodness of the church but in the end chose not to put their complete trust in Christ.

Now I'm not saying that there are not some verses in scripture that would raise the question of whether or not one could lose salvation. I just don't think this is one of them.

And while I think that the opinions of the church fathers are valuable in interpreting scripture they still must be taken with a grain of salt - or a mouthful in some cases!

 

[Pastor Larry]

Heb. 6:7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;

This particular verse that I was commenting on does not promise anything at all to anyone who is not useful to God. Does that mean that those Christians who (do to illness, for example) are not be able to function at all are no longer the subject of the blessings of God? This particular verse does not answer such questions. It only promises blessing to those who are useful.

Why did you only quote half of it?


NAU Hebrews 6:7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

The last half is pretty important because it does exactly what you say the verse doesn't do ... It shows that those who are not useful do have a promise ... their promise is cursing and destruction. It is always helpful to deal with the whole context, not just part of it.

It has been said that this description of those who have been saved is the very most clear description of such persons found anywhere in the whole of Scripture. And yet, with the onslaught of John Calvin upon the body of Christ, even this clearest of the clear descriptions of those who have been saved is now thought by some to be a description of persons who have never been saved and who are sinners damned to hell for eternity.

Earlier, I posted a link to an article that shows how these terms do not necessarily convey true salvation, especially since "falling away" is included.

Approaching the text without understanding the nature of security in Christ leads to a misunderstanding of this passage. The very next verse (v. 9) contrasts these people with who are saved. What good is a contrast if both refer to the same thing??

 

[Craigbythesea]

Why did you only quote half of it?


NAU Hebrews 6:7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

The last half is pretty important because it does exactly what you say the verse doesn't do ... It shows that those who are not useful do have a promise ... their promise is cursing and destruction. It is always helpful to deal with the whole context, not just part of it.

Larry,

I did NOT quote just half of the verse. Your other half is not the other half, but verse 8. I did not comment here on verse 8 because I had already done so, and I was answering a question that HankD asked me about my comment on verse 7. Perhaps you missed my post that HankD was asking about. Here it is again:

1. Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2. of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.
3. And this we will do, if God permits.
4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9. But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.
10. For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints.
11. And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end,
12. so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises. (NASB, 1995)

I disagree. Useful vegetation “receives a blessing from God.” But if that vegetation should yield “thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.” There is not a change in species here, the same species is in view in both vs. 7 & 8. It is the same vegetation, but in verse 8 it becomes useless and brings forth thorns and thistles. In verse 9, the writer says that he is persuaded that his readers will not do that, nonetheless he warns them of the danger. In verse 10, the writer reminds his readers of God’s faithfulness; God will never abandon those are useful to Him. In verse 11, the writer expresses his desire that each one of his readers show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end,” (obviously others do not realize the full assurance of hope until the end). In verse 12, the writer explains the need for the diligence on the part of his readers, “so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.” The promises of God are inherited through faith and patience, through continuing in the faith, regardless of circumstances. Col. 1:21-23.

21. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22. yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--
23. if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Approaching the text without understanding the nature of security in Christ leads to a misunderstanding of this passage. The very next verse (v. 9) contrasts these people with who are saved. What good is a contrast if both refer to the same thing??

Approaching the text with the understanding of eternal security leads to a misunderstanding of this passage.

9. But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. (NASB, 1995)

The writer has just warned the Hebrew Christians of the danger of falling away and the consequences of doing so, but adds, “beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.” If the danger was only imaginary, the warning would not make any sense. But the danger is VERY REAL, and the warning makes very good sense. The writer’s words of encouragement in verse 9 change nothing at all.

1 Cor. 10:1. For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2. and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3. and all ate the same spiritual food;
4. and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
5. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6. Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.
7. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, "THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY."
8. Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day.
9. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.
10. Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. (NASB, 1995)

 

[Pastor Larry]

But as I have said, the danger is not imaginary. People who have heard, seen, and experienced the gospel message can fall away, proving that they had only heard, seen, and experienced it rather than truly be saved.

Craig, the Bible teaches that God who began a good work in you will complete it ... that means you are secure. If you can lose your salvation, then God is not completing his work. And that is a violation. Consider that in light of your interpretation of this passage. For you, here are a bunch of people in whom God began the work of salvation, but didn't complete it. That is a direct contradiction of God's stated promise.

Can you not see that?

 

[RaptureReady]

Our salvation was complete when Jesus was crucified and rose from the grave. When we accept and believe that, then we are saved for eternity, then God can begin to work in our lives for his honor and glory.

 

[HankD]

There is IMO a passage which could be used as a parallel verse to Hebrews 6:7-8:

1 Corinthians 3:13-15
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

HankD

 

[Lacy Evans]

G H Lang expalins that those addressed are indeed Christians, that those addressed are indeed in danger of "falling away", and that the "falling away" has nothing to do with eternally secure salvation.

http://www.inthebeginning.org/books/lang/chapter_8.pdf

Lacy