Hebrews 6:4-6

[Pastor Larry]

1 Cor 3 is not about individual Christians and their lives, but rather about building the church. It is not a parallel.

Another important point that should be noted is the use of personal references. When he is talking to the readers (5:11-14; 6:9-12), he uses the second person "you." When encouraging them to press on, he uses the first person "we" (6:1-3). Only in 6:4-6 does he use a generic reference (participial ... the one who ... ). That seems not an accident. It adds even more evidence to the already overwhelming pile that he is not talking about true believers in whom he is confident, even though they might be weak. He is talking about those who are useless and ready to be burned because they are not truly saved.

Lang's article is less than convincing. He uses extensive references to Israel, someething definitely questionable in teh context, while overlookign the point of using Israel. This reference to Israel started in chapter 3 and was used for the express purpose of talking about people who did not have true salvation, and did not enter into God's rest. So the very example he uses proves that these people were not truly saved.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Lang's article is less than convincing. He uses extensive references to Israel, someething definitely questionable in teh context, while overlookign the point of using Israel. This reference to Israel started in chapter 3 and was used for the express purpose of talking about people who did not have true salvation, and did not enter into God's rest. So the very example he uses proves that these people were not truly saved.

Brother Larry, you have my utmost respect for at least reading the chapter from Mr Lang's book and considering it. May God bless your studies.

I humbly disagree Heb 3:11, 1 Cor 10:6-12, and Jude 5 all clearly apply the picture of Caanan to the millenial kingdom and they all indicate, by type, that:

1) We are saved. (blood on the door-posts) If those who applied the blood of the lamb don't represent the truly saved, then it sure messes up the picture.
2) We have been baptized. (red-sea)
3) We must by faith after salvation, enter the millenial kingdom. (Joshua & Caleb)


There are also several scriptures like Eph 5:5-7 which, while they don't directly refer to the children of Israel in the wilderness, certainly hold out as a warning that those (Christians) who commit certain sins are in danger of not inheriting the kingdom.

Lacy

 

[Charles Meadows]

To me Lang seems to ALREADY PRESUPPOSE that salvation CANNOT be lost - and interpretation is made along those lines.

 

[Lacy Evans]

This is a middle chapter in a commentary. He proves OSAS/eternal security earlier and he bases his scheme on that presupposition.

The other views also presuppose things. Some presuppose that "falling away" means the person lost his salvation, some presuppose that it means they never were saved to begin with. Presupposition is not a bad thing if the precepts are sound. It is a matter of judging for onself which position is the most consistent and logical, when carried out to it's obvious end

Lacy.

 

[Charles Meadows]

Lacy,

I think that's pretty true.

"some presuppose that it means they never were saved to begin with."

I don't think I'd say this however since this statement often stems from the presupposition of OSAS.

I personally am essentially OSAS. I do not think that this verse justifies loss of salvation since by mentioning in verses 7-9 those who were not fertile ground he means to speak of those who never really made a committment to Christ.

There are verses in the bible which do seem to challenge OSAS - this just isn't one of them.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Lacy,

I agree that Canaan is, to some degree, a type of the millennial kingdom, or more specifically eternal life. IT is given to all who are saved, not merely to some and I htink that is where the issue breaks down. Clearly, becuase of unbelief, some of the wilderness generation did not enter. IN the same way, there will be some of this age, who becuase of unbelief, will not enter.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Brother Larry,

The Kingdom is 'given' to all the saved but not all of the saved enter into it. I can show you verse after verse that show a conditional kingdom entrance for eternally secure Christians.

KJV Numbers 13:1-2
1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Send thou men, that they may search the land of Canaan, which I give unto the children of Israel: of every tribe of their fathers shall ye send a man, every one a ruler among them.

Canaan was given to those under the blood, but ...

KJV Numbers 14:23-24
23 Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:
24 But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.

It was only recieved by those who added practical righteousness to their faith.

KJV Numbers 14:29-30
29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward which have murmured against me.
30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.

Despite God's promise of the Kingdom, the first-born blessing, crowns, rewards, etc., these things that "accompany salvation" are always tied to works (steadfastness, suffering, striving, diligence, etc.) after salvation.

KJV Hebrews 6:9-12
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Lacy

 

[Craigbythesea]

I personally am essentially OSAS. I do not think that this verse justifies loss of salvation since by mentioning in verses 7-9 those who were not fertile ground he means to speak of those who never really made a committment to Christ.

There is no mention in Hebrew 6 of infertile ground. If the ground was infertile, it could not produce any plants at all. In order to produce plants bearing thorns and thistles the soil would have to be just as fertile as it would have to be to produce nice juicy watermelons. The soil is fertile and it does not change in this passage. The only change is in the fruit produced. In this case, it is from good to bad, as was the case with Hymenaeus and Alexander:

1 Tim. 1:18. This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight,
19. keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.
20. Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme. (NASB, 1995)

 

[Dr. Bob]

We have passed the limit of pages for discussion. I would ask any so interested to open a NEW THREAD.

But not on the same vein as discussed here for so many pages (most will not read such a long thread). But perhaps one salient point that is still in question.

Thank you all. THREAD CLOSED.