Hebrews 6 Dilemma

[Darrell C]

Not at all. We interpret the O.T. in the fuller light of the N.T. But that does not mean that the O.T. in general, and the Law in particular was not written for our benefit. The Lord Jesus quotes from Deuteronomy more than from any other book.

It is for our benefit in that we can look to it for the First Principles. We understand atonement for sin, for example, through the example set in the Law. Consider this as opposed to Christ coming and dying in the stead of the sinner without that example.

That doesn't change the fact that we, as Christians, are not in relationship with God through the Law and all that entails.

We don't correlate the realities of the New Covenant to the figure given in the Law.
We apply the principle taught in the Law (i.e., love thy neighbor, sin brings death, sin must be atoned for).

I agree. I may have misunderstood your earlier posts. We do not become Israel because we agree that the Law was good. We become the Israel of God because He has grafted us in (Romans 11:17ff; Ephesians 2:11-22). But that may be a subject for another thread.

And what this suggests is that we, the Church, have been grafted into Israel as it existed under Law. That is not the case. Israel, the Nation, was in relationship with God through the Law (as well as Gentiles who obeyed that which was written on their hearts). We don't change that fact and create a "spiritual Israel" that equates to the Nation.

The one point I will make concerning the "tree" is that those branches that were cut out were cut out due to unbelief. We don't make them...members of the spiritual Israel of God, recipients of eternal redemption, or in relationship to God on an eternal basis.

And that is what many do. They speak of the spiritual Israel of God and confuse that with National Israel...who is exactly who is in view in Romans 11.

Okay, two points: the second being that we see in your second quote that the formation of "one man" begins with Christ...not Israel the Nation, not with the establishment of the Law. Those who were cut out were of the Nation Israel, not the Spiritual Israel of God. And those are two entirely different economies.


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[Darrell C]

You were not cautioned about laying again the First Principles of Christ.

You had no prior relationship with God through the First Covenant.

So if you want to implement these warning into your life, feel free. The problem is that unless you were under Law before receiving the Gospel...

...these warnings have nothing to do with you.


I disagree, partly for reasons given above, but also because huge numbers of Christians are resting in the 'first principles of Christ' and are not growing in the faith, and many have a very faulty understanding of what salvation by grave through faith really means, so yes, IMO these warnings are very relevant to Christians.

So their end is to be burned?

You are making those in the passage something quite different than the writer is. They have yet to go on unto perfection, and within the framework of Hebrews that is speaking about the completion Christ brings to the foundational teachings. Not maturity, though most translations give the Greek that meaning.

We do not crucify unto ourselves the Son of God when we sin, or...by being lazy and ignorant Christians. Those in the passage are ignorant of Christ and in danger of falling away, hence the warning.

The exhortation in ch.12, yes, but, you did not tread the Son of God underfoot, count His Sacrifice unholy, and do despite unto the Holy Ghost. What you did, when you received the knowledge of the truth, was to yield to the Comforter, rather than resist Him.


Well, for years I did (see above), but the point is that unbelief is not the only sin.

Do you see what you do there, Martin...you are equating yourself as an unbeliever to what is in view in the passage, except in the passage you ascribe salvation to those being warned.

I agree, when you were unsaved you did exactly what the Writer warns of, you tread underfoot the Son of God, and you did despite unto the Spirit of Grace.

But did you count His Sacrifice unholy? Did you crucify Him unto yourself afresh? That makes no sense. Christ is not crucified afresh because people are unbelievers. The only way the Son of God is crucified afresh is through the offering up of sacrifice according to the Law.

And you never did that.

Now lets put this back in the fuller statement:

Well, for years I did (see above), but the point is that unbelief is not the only sin. Those who continue in sin without repentance are treading the Son of God underfoot, despising 'the riches of His goodness, forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads [them] to repentance, but in accordance with [their] hardness and ....impentitent heart, [they] are treasuring up for [themselves] wrath....' (Rom. 2:4-5).

No, for years you were not a Christian in need of "growing up." That is the meaning you are trying to give Hebrews 6:1-6 and we can see that this is not the case. By your own admission...you were not saved. This is precisely the condition of those being warned.

This quote also speak of unbelievers, so I am not seeing any Biblical Basis for ascribing salvation to those warned in the passage.

Our churches are full of unconverted 'believers' who imagine that their water baptism and presence in church makes them Christians, just as the Temple was full of Jews who thought that their race and circumcision made them real Jews (2:29).

Again, you destroy your own argument.

You properly designate them as associated with the Church...but not saved.

As far as those of Israel being "real Jews"...they were. Remember, it was Jews who were cut out, and they were not saved, they were cut out because of unbelief. And I know you are familiar with the chapter but I will post a few verses for those who may read this and are not:

Romans 11

King James Version (KJV)

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

In view is National Israel. They are the focal point of the chapter. Not Spiritual Israel, National Israel. We see nothing in the Chapter to indicate they are "real Jews," and we see Paul make it specific by clarifying he is speaking of National Israel, he calls himself part of that people, an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, and of the Tribe of Benjamin.

Spiritual Israel has no Tribe designation.


7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.


8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.

National Israel has been given a spirit of slumber. Not Spiritual Israel.


18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:


Those natural branches that were broken off because of unbelief are of National Israel, not Spiritual Israel.

There is no question that in view is not a "tree" of salvation, but a "tree" of provision. The same imagery is used in John 15.

Only the Elect among Israel were in fact of Spiritual Israel, and they were not cut out.


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[Darrell C]

No, no, no! The teaching on the ark is absolutely for us! We need to see that we need an ark and though we don't need to build it, we do need to enter into it. The ark is Jesus Christ.

You miss the point. The point is this, Martin...while we do have an application the conditions are quite different. The Ark can be viewed as a figure for salvation in Christ, but it was not salvation in Christ. Secondly, the point is that w cannot "spiritually" say "I have entered into an Ark in Christ and am saved from the waters."

Just as we do not enter into a physical boat, we do not effect the foundational teachings of the Hebrew Scriptures.

Another example of you laying again a foundational teaching would be in regards to baptisms. You can apply the warning to yourself, myself, and the Church throughout this Age, because we do not have a Doctrine of Baptisms, where we ceremonially wash ourselves with physical water. We have a Doctrine of Christian Baptism, but that is singular, not plural.

And we do not ascribe salvific significance to that baptism, because when Peter correlates the Ark to Christianity, he makes it clear it is not a physical washing:


1 Peter 3:18-21

King James Version (KJV)

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


The Ark is the antitype, Christ is the type, the reality that the figure spoke to. And some of us futurists, by the way, call this a "picture prophecy."


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[Darrell C]

I'm running out of steam now, so I'll finish here. What we have, I think is the hermeneutical difference between the Reformed and the Dispensational, and it's clear from all this that they run quite deep. Whether I'm the man to champion the Reformed position, and whether I have the time to do so if I am, is another question. Maybe one of the others will take up the cudgels.

Not a Hermeneutics issue in this passage, Martin. The problem is that you are not exegeting the passage before seeking to expound upon it. Not trying to upset you, but, you are imposing into the text something your analogies fail to support, i.e., you likened to those being warned when you were young, where you have the warned in this passage believers but you are not by your own admission. To make it work we need to see you guilty of the charges levied after you are saved.

There is no Reformed Champion that is going to correctly ascribe salvation to those warned in Hebrews 5:10-6:12.

Not one.

But I would suggest you consider MacArthur for a Reformed teacher who correctly interprets this passage.

And God bless you too. We agree on the basics. 'Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners' (1 Tim. 1:15).

Amen!

God bless.

 

[beameup]

Isn't it more convenient and "logical" to just assume that Hebrews was written to the "little flock" centered in Jerusalem and headed by Peter (during the early years of Acts)??
The author gives a clue that he (and the "audience") were present on the day of Pentecost, and addresses the readers with great authority.
Occam's razor

"have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come"