Hebrews 7 and the priesthood...

[BobRyan]

quote:Bob
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With "everyone as a priest" you can not have a mediator between other Christians and God on earth (as in the case of the Levitical Priesthood ) - rather you can onlyl have the "ONE mediator" as in the case of Christ our Highpriest
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brother Ed --
Again, you miss the point. Christ is the one mediator of what?

Christ offers "His Own blood" and mediates "between God and Man". As such - there can be "no other mediator".

All the Levitical priests stood as mediators between God and man - but they had to offer sacrifices "for themselves and for the people" since they themselves were sinners in need of savior.

Christ on the other hand -- is not a sinner and does not offer animal blood - but rather His own blood as the "one" mediator between God and man.

A more compelling case of "contrast" between the entire Levitical system and the role of Christ "no beginning of days nor end of years" - who offers His own blood - could hardly be found.


Heb 8:6 ¶ But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.


Notice that the ministry of Christ is contrasted to the ministry of the Levitical priesthood in offering animal blood.

Brother Ed
He is the mediator of the "better covenant", and if He is our Great High Priest, then His mediatorial work is not that of a personal nature for personal sins.

That "appears" to be a direct contradiction of the New Covenant as quoted in Hebrews 8.

No such disqualifier is found in the text nor in all of scripture for Christ's role. Rather EACH one of us "come boldly before the throne of Grace" due to the ministry of Christ for us.

"Since then we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus... and since we have a great high priest...let us draw near with a sincere heart with full assurance" Heb 10:19-22.

The work of Christ for each one of us is clear. Indeed forgiveness of sins in through Christ alone "For there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved" and Christ declared that forgiveness of sins is to be preached "in His name" and through His blood.

Brother Ed
It is of a corporate nature for the continuance of the covenant between God and the corporate nation -- the Church.

Unfortunately for your position - the Hebrews 8 "Quote of the New Covenant" shows it to be "individual" made to "each one" and not relying on "each one to teach his brother saying know the Lord for ALL shall know Me from the LEAST to the Greatest" - it is individuals in the church - not "organizations" that are saved under that covenant.

Hebrews 8 -
8 For finding fault with them, He says, "" BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
10 "" FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11 "" AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, "KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12 "" FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.''

It is the Law of God written on the "mind" and the "heart" of the "individual". It is the individual that is encouraged to respond and "come boldly before the throne of Grace".

Brother Ed
How do we know this? By using the type found in the Old Covenant, the high priesthood of national Israel. They were not involved with personal sins. Their function was of a corporate nature to mediate the corporate covenant between God and national Israel.

The Work of the High Priest dealt with the individual sins of the people on the day of atonement. The individual sins of the people had gone to the sanctuary during the daily service throughout the year. On the day of Atonement - final disposition is made. As the Jews believe to this very day - that is the day that God judges the world. The judgment that takes place on that day - deals with the case of each individual sinner. Individuals are cast out - and individual remain in that day of atonement service in heaven.

(Which only starts when Christ enters the second section of the Heavenly Sanctuary - the Most Holy Place. Something that had not yet happened as of the writing of the book of Hebrews).

Brother Ed
Bob, you keep crossing up the typology here. If God says that Jesus the Christ is our Great High Priest, then that does not mean that Jesus does the work of a dishwasher in Heaven. He does the work of a High Priest, and as Hebrews 8 shows, that mediation is of a covenantal nature, specifically the covenant between God and the corporate nation.

For the Type to be fulfilled BOTH the work of the Holy Place AND of the Holy Place had to be completed in Heaven. None of it was "dishwashing".

Brother Ed
Salvation is a corporate issue. It is familial, and those in the family find salvation. Those outside God's family do not.

This is simply not true. In Ephesians 1 we are told that salvation comes to us and that adoption into the family of God is the result. Your argument is that we join the church and at some point the entire church gets saved.

The "individual" nature of salvation is clear in the text of scripture "I stand at the door and knock if ANY ONE hear my voice and open the door I will come in to HIM and will dine with HIM".

"God so loved the world...that WHOSOEVER believes in Him might not perish".

The individual nature of salvation, repentance, forgiveness, the new birth etc is clearly taught.

"And they shall not say each one to his brother KNOW the Lord - for ALL shall know Me from the LEAST to the Greatest".

For every ONE that seeks finds and to every ONE that knocks it is opened

Romans 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."


2Cor 5:10 "WE must all stand ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ...so that EACH ONE may recieve the recompence for his deeds done in the body whether they be good or whether they be evil

How can this possibly be missed?



Instead of these texts - you provide the following

Ed
"He who will not have the Church as His mother shall not have God as his Father."

I think a review of the Bible texts above would serve better in that case.

In Christ,

Bob

[ June 03, 2003, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[neal4christ]

before the Golden Calf episode in Genesis 32

I think you accidently wrote that when you meant to say Exodus 32. It confused me at first, I thought I had missed something!

Neal

 

[Carson Weber]

I think you accidently wrote that when you meant to say Exodus 32.

Thanks for the correction Neal.

 

[CatholicConvert]

This is simply not true. In Ephesians 1 we are told that salvation comes to us and that adoption into the family of God is the result. Your argument is that we join the church and at some point the entire church gets saved.

The "individual" nature of salvation is clear in the text of scripture "I stand at the door and knock if ANY ONE hear my voice and open the door I will come in to HIM and will dine with HIM".

Yes, individuals are saved, but they are saved by becoming members of a covenantal family, not as individuals outside the family. God's initial creation of mankind was in the family context. That family relationship was lost in the Fall. Redemption is the redeeming of the family of God.

If we can enter into the holiest of all, then why is Jesus a high priest at all? Where is the separation between the high priest and the common people?

 

[BobRyan]

There is no "Saved by becoming covenantal members of a publically organized institution" language in scripture. Though this is exactly the argument that the priests of the One True Church started by God at sinai - made in the NT.

Rather "EACH ONE" is saved as with the "mouth they confess" and with the "heart they believe" resulting in membership in the covenantal family which then in turn "results in salvation".

ooops that is not what it said - it said "With the heart each one believes and with the mouth each one confesses RESULTING IN salvation".

This is not a denial of the New Covenant "Law written on the INDIVIDUALS heart". (no corporate heart in the NT). Rather it is a statement that the Bible shows that ENTRANCE into the body of Christ is by salvation INSTEAD of entrance into salvation is through the church. The church is not "our savior" - Christ is and when the leaders of the ONE true Nation Church claimed that the CHURCH was the door - Peter responded "There is NO other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved" appealing to "Christ alone".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

We can enter the holy of holies BECAUSE Jesus is our High Priest - Jesus is "there" representing us - we enter throught the New and Living way - His flesh (Hebrews 10).

Yes, individuals are saved, but they are saved by becoming members of a covenantal family,

No such "saved by becoming members of a covenantal family" mentioned in scripture.

Rather we become members of that family WHEN we are saved and we are SAVED by an individual encounter with Christ.


Romans 10
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
[/i]

Individual salvation - precedes being a part of the body of Christ.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The Hightpriestly Ministry of Christ - contrasted with the mortal ministry of man in Hebrews.

Levitical human priesthood -vs- the eternal Heavenly Priesthood of God the Son.


Hebrews 4
13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace


Hebrews 7
1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham as he was returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,
2 to whom also Abraham apportioned a tenth part of all the spoils, was first of all, by the translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then also king of Salem, which is king of peace.
3 Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.


The qualification for this priesthood "of the Most High God" have been listed
1. King of Righteousness
2. King of Peace
3. Without an Earthly Father
4. Without an Earthly Mother
6. Without genelogy family history
7. Having neither beginning of days
8. or End of Years

For the reason Christ Himself says "WHo ARE my brothers and my sisters AND My Mother?".

Christ is eternal God from eternity past - He alone fulfills all the conditions of the Melchizedek priesthood.

The priesthood of Christ is of an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT order from the Levitical one - contrasting not just with the Highpriest but with ALL Levitical priests as we see here.

The contrast is beteen the entire system of "Levitical Priests" and the "order of the Melchizedek" priesthood.


The entire "order of Aaron" (from which ALL priests of the Levitical priesthood came) and the "Order of Melchizedek"

Hebrews 7
11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?
12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.
13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests.
15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek


The contrast is between the Tribe of Judan and that of Levi and the conclusion is - this is an entirely different order of priesthood.

The change in the priesthood requires a change in the law that declares who is authorized to BE a priest.

Finally, we see in Hebrews 7 - the contrast is also between mortal man - and eternal God - between the earthly and the Heavenly

And the earthly priest system is over already "The Former Priests"

Hebrews 7
23 The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing,


The mere fact that they are human and do not live on to serve as priests, but are "prevented by Death" - disqualifies them.

All humans subject to decay and death - are disqualified in this order of Melchizedek. So what is Christ - by contrast?

Hebrews 7
24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.
25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.


Christ "alone" - saves. And through Him alone we "Draw near to God". He is ALWAYS there because He "always lives to make intercession" as in mediation - the One Mediator between God and Man (1 Tim 2:5)

Hebrews 7
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

Notice that the sacrifice is "made ONCE for ALL" and the contrast is the weakness of "men" vs the eternal nature of God the Son.

No other priesthood can claim that they are "not human".

Hebrews 10

10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins;
12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,
13 waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET.
14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.


He repeatedly emphasizes
#1. ONE sacrifice
#2. Offered Once
#3. For ALL time
#4. For ALL mankind

This is the "unique" and "contrasting" element of the priesthood of Christ vs the that of all earthly - human - mortals.

Hebrews 10
15 And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,
16 "" THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,'' He then says,
17 "" AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE.''
18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.
19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus,
20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,
21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;


We are clean before God and can enter into the Holy place of heaven itself by faith "through the new and living way" for where there is true and real forgiveness "there is no longer any offering for sin".

Continually "re-offering" the sin offering - is to deny that the true forgiveness has been given which declares "there is No Longer Any offering for sin".

Once for All - once for All Time -.

In Christ,

Bob

[ June 06, 2003, 07:15 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[Carson Weber]

For those who are interested in how the Book of Hebrews is one of the foundational texts to the Catholic doctrine of the Eucharist, listen to this. Join us in the basement of Dr. Hahn's house on a Tuesday evening as we open the Word of God and receive the nourishment that only Christ can give in the Sacred Scriptures:

http://www.boerne.com/temp/Dr_Hahn_Bible_Study_Liturgy_09-17-02_Q&A_Spirit_Truth_Sacrifice.mp3

 

[BobRyan]

Sounds great.

We seem to have agreement that in reading this text we recieve grace and nourishment directly from Christ - grace that Christ alone can give.

And the text of Hebrews - as noted above - makes that point repeatedly. See the bold type as the text itself makes emphasis on the Priesthood of Christ in heaven - by direct contrast to the discontinued priesthood of man on earth.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob wrote --
The "Kingdom of Priests" Rev 1:6 and the Royal Priesthood where EACH member of the church on earth is a priest - precludes the entire concept of the FEW Priests mediating on behalf of the MANY non-priests. That former system is ended.

Carson wrote

Actually, before the Golden Calf episode in Genesis 32 when there were no Levitical priests per se, the entire nation of Israel was considered priestly, while simultaneously, the firstborn sons of Israel were consecrated to serve Israel as priests.

True - the "calling" was to become a "kingdom of priests". Of course as newly freed slaves - enslaved for generations - they "had a few things to learn" and in fact none of them were "sacrificing" animals ceremonially for forgiveness of sins.

There was no "mediating between God and man" going on among them. At least not that we see in scripture.

Carson
At Sinai, all of Israel was laicized, and the Levites were given the priesthood in replacement of the firstborn sons. This was a probationary phase that was not part of God's original plan for Israel.

The tribe of Levi were faithful when Moses came down and said "who is on the Lord's Side" as a result - God appointed them to care for the ark and the sons of Aaron to be actual priests.

The "Levitical Priesthood" as we saw already in Hebrews 7 thread - was entirely replaced by Christ.

Carson
In the Church, the prefiguring foretype of Israel is fulfilled. All Christians become firstborn sons in Jesus Christ and are therefore priestly in Christ (in persona Chrisi).

Fascinating! You just did away with Brother Ed's entire argument!! (Maybe that is why his posts are so sparse lately on this thread?)

You also abolished your own priesthood order! (Odd that a Franciscan would admit that so clearly).

You imagined somewhat that there is something of a "priest with no ministry" vs a priest "with a ministry".

But as we see in the text of HEbrews above - "no such thing" as a priest without a ministry.

Carson --
And, within the New Israel, there are those who share in the ministerial role of Christ as head (in persona Christi capitis) as the firstborn sons of Israel served Israel, the firstborn son (Cf. Ex 4:22) of the other nations.

Odd that the Bible doesn't speak of "priests together with Christ" or "priests of the order of Christ's priesthood" or "other priests of the oder of Melchizedek" (Of course I know the Mormons posit that very thing - but are you saying Catholics also do it?).

In any case, the Bible doesn't.

In Christ,

Bob