You’re right; it doesn’t work. My <understanding> is not as you say, <<of the covenants>>. It is one Covenant that is the only Eternal and eternally New Covenant—GOD’S Covenant of Grace. <They>, are not <<all one>>. The one Covenant of God is all the qualities and characteristics and aspect and facets and PHASES. God’s Covenant is never called, described or explained in Scripture as the <<New Covenant (that) is really the 'renewed' covenant>>. The New Covenant is the EVER New Covenant OF GOD-IN-CHRIST. [It is like the grace or love of God to the saved, ever new though it is as old (so to speak) as God Himself.]
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Hebrews 8-- no 'old covenant'
- Thread starter Gerhard Ebersoehn
- Start date
You’re right; it doesn’t work. My <understanding> is not as you say, <<of the covenants>>. It is one Covenant that is the only Eternal and eternally New Covenant—GOD’S Covenant of Grace. <They>, are not <<all one>>. The one Covenant of God is all the qualities and characteristics and aspect and facets and PHASES. God’s Covenant is never called, described or explained in Scripture as the <<New Covenant (that) is really the 'renewed' covenant>>. The New Covenant is the EVER New Covenant OF GOD-IN-CHRIST. [It is like the grace or love of God to the saved, ever new though it is as old (so to speak) as God Himself.]
Er, no. Read Hebrews 8:8 again. I omitted the first five words.Post #2…
You quoted nothing of relevance in verse 8. Only <<'"Behold, the days are coming," says the Lord, >> is from verse 8. The rest is verse 9.
I don't think you'll find there does.God ever has had ONE Covenant: The Covenant of Grace: the New Covenant: the Eternal Covenant of the Eternal Council of God. If there were other Covenants there had to be other Gods who were able to “save to the UTTERMOST”.
Right! I now understand your position perfectly.But God is One and God’s Council is One. The Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit FOR ETERNITY WITH HOLY OATH ONCE MADE COVENANT unto Salvation by the Good News of Jesus Christ which Gospel “IS THE POWER OF GOD unto Salvation to EVERYONE Jew (in Jeremiah’s day) and Greek (in Jesus’ day).”
So how can God say through Jeremiah that He is going to make a new covenant which will not be like the first? As I showed, this new covenant was future when Jeremiah wrote, but in existence at the time of the writer to the Hebrews (c. AD60-63).
Do you want me to show you or not to waste our time by showing you?Show me where I deny or contradict. You can’t. So don’t waste our time to find where I allegedly did.
The Hebrew word translated 'new' in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is chadash, and almost invariably it refers to something new and different:
Exodus 1:8. 'And there arose up a new king over Egypt.....' This was not the old king come back to life, but a new one. The old one was good; this one was bad. The old one was old; this one was young. It's a different king.
the New Covenant is not the Mosaic covenant changed
I have before asked what <<the Mosaic covenant>> is. No one has as yet told me. Must be because I expect a Scriptural answer.
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Do you want me to show you or not to waste our time by showing you?
Show me! You cannot because I never denied or contradicted that <<the Holy Spirit wrote 'not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers.........' (v.9).>>
Right! I now understand your position perfectly.
So how can God say through Jeremiah that He is going to make a new covenant which will not be like the first? As I showed, this new covenant was future when Jeremiah wrote, but in existence at the time of the writer to the Hebrews (c. AD60-63).
As YOU, showed, and I agreed, as Hebrews 8:8,9 shows, <<this new covenant was future when Jeremiah wrote, but in existence at the time of the writer to the Hebrews>>. You SHOW <how>, friend! If a=b and b=c, c=a / a=c no diffs. <This> same <covenant> 'was' Past Tense, already in the past when Jeremiah wrote; 'was' present and in existence at the time of the writer to the Hebrews; and 'was' to be in the future forevermore after.
I repeat,
https://www.baptistboard.com/threads/hebrews-8-no-old-covenant.104540/#post-2309142#3
In verse 8 God says "the days come that I will make New Covenant with ... Israel ... Judah, not according to the Covenant which I made WHEN I took them by the hand..." The same "Covenant" is spoken of, the "NEW Covenant" God in the past spoke of that He in the future would make with Israel Judah ---through Jesus Christ as the whole trend of the chapter indicates.
1) The same "NEW Covenant" is spoken of, which "God made according to the Covenant" :
Stipulation One, "with their fathers" verse 9.
The correlating stipulation in verse 8 is, "with the children".
2) Still the same "NEW Covenant" is spoken of, which "God made according to the Covenant" :
Stipulation Two, "with the house of Israel" verse 9,10.
The correlating stipulation in verse 8 is, "with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah".
3) Still the same "NEW Covenant" is spoken of, which "God made according to the Covenant" :
Stipulation Three, "the days come when I will" verse 9,10.
The correlating stipulation in verse 8 is, "in the day (in the past) when I took them by the hand".
4) Still the same "NEW Covenant" is spoken of, which "God made according to the Covenant" :
Stipulation Four, "THIS, Covenant I will make after those days in their mind and in their hearts" verse 10.
The correlating stipulation in verse 8 is, "finding fault with them".
Thus the contrast is completed, not between different covenants, but between different ministrations and or different aspects of "THIS Covenant".
So there is one everlasting "New Covenant", the Covenant everlastingly made previously, made everlastingly New in Christ, through Christ, in the day of Christ and for ever after the day of Christ "on the right hand of the Throne of The Majesty On High", vs.1.
Surely that reasonably is being called "THIS Covenant" and "a New Covenant"?
Now verse 12 of chapter 8 undeniably provides a fine ending to it, so that V.13 properly belongs to, and with chapter 9, which speaks of the "first tabernacle" or "worldly sanctuary". So therefore,
"With saying, 'rendered new', the first tabernacle is made old."
(('en tohi legein kainehn' Accusative, "the first tabernacle ['skehneh' 9:2], is made old." ['pepalaiohken tehn prohtehn']))
Therefore,
"8:13With saying, 'rendered new', the first tabernacle is made old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old, is ready to disappear. 9:1So then ['eiche men oun'] the first tabernacle / sanctuary / holy place ['heh prohteh' ('skehneh') vs.2 (old) place of worship, 'topos' vs.7], had both a sanctuary / holy place for the people ... and behind the second veil, the holiest place".
The New Covenant is the outworking in time of the Covenant of Grace made among the Persons of the Trinity before time began (eg. John 5:38-40; Ephesians 1:3-14; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).
Exactly what I said because it’s exactly what we both say what the Scriptures say. Therefore, Amen!
I shall refer to the Mosaic or Sinaitic covenant as the ‘first’ covenant because that is how the writer to the Hebrews speaks of it
And so we reached full circle. At last you arrived at the issue in this conversation. About which I have to say,
I deny the writer speaks of a <<Mosaic or Sinaitic covenant>> anywhere in Hebrews.
I deny: a <<‘first’ covenant>> at all spoken of in Hebrews 8.
I deny <<that is how the writer to the Hebrews speaks of it>>— <it> being the italicized word <covenant> in the KJV in Hebrews 8:7 and 8:13.
The New Covenant is the outworking in time of the Covenant of Grace made among the Persons of the Trinity before time began (eg. John 5:38-40; Ephesians 1:3-14; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).
The great Puritan John Owen, in his vast commentary on Hebrews, listed seventeen ways in which the two covenants differ, and in each, the new is superior. I think I can do no better than to list these differences, trying to put them very briefly in my own words. [I shall refer to the Mosaic or Sinaitic covenant as the ‘first’ covenant because that is how the writer to the Hebrews speaks of it]
............
We have found and agreed,
<<The New Covenant is the outworking in time of the Covenant of Grace made among the Persons of the Trinity before time began (eg. John 5:38-40; Ephesians 1:3-14; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).>>
But strictly speaking one must differentiate between <<The New Covenant made among the Persons of the Trinity before time began>> and <<the outworking in time of the Covenant>>.
Therefore,
1. The New Covenant, The Everlasting Covenant, in the Council of the Tri-Une God, was <established> by God.
2. “God, through the prophets speaking in times past…” Hebrews 1:1, beginning with Moses, <<at the coming out from Egypt of the Israelites>> at <<Sinai >> AND LONG BEFORE THAT, revealed God’s New yet Eternal, and Eternal yet New, Covenant of Grace.
3. “God… after so long a time … speaking by the Son in these last days…” Hebrews 1:2 <<‘At just the right time’ (Rom 5:6, NIV); ‘In the dispensation of the fullness of time’ (Eph 1:10). ‘When the fullness of the time was come’ (Gal 4:4). ‘When the Day of Pentecost had fully come….’ (Acts 2:1)>>, FULFILLED God’s New yet Eternal, and Eternal yet New, Covenant of Grace.
So yes,
<<the manner of promulgation (Heb 12:18-26) differed>>; yet it is the same Covenant.
<<mediators differed>>; yet it is the same Covenant.
<<subject matter differed>>; yet it is the same Covenant.
What are you speaking of here, though? <<The first covenant revived the demands of the covenant of works with Moses saying, “Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law” (Deut 27:26).>>? That’s your talk. Not God’s; not the Covenant’s; not Moses’, not the Law’s ---no prophet’s and not the Son’s!
Yes, <<In the new covenant, God’s law is written on our hearts with Christ saying, “My yoke is easy and My burden is light” (Matt 11:30), and we find ourselves saying, ‘His commandments are not grievous’ (1John 5:3, A.V.).>> JUST LIKE GOD through Moses spoke to the children of Israel “words” of GOD, of his help and love and forgiveness and mercies even the mercies of David!
WHY DON’T YOU MENTION THESE WORDS OF GOD?!
<<manner of dedication differed>>. <<In the first covenant, it was by the sacrifice of beasts and the blood sprinkled around the altar (Lev 8, 9).>> It is not <<In the first covenant>>. Nowhere in the Scriptures! It was in the first tabernacle, the first sanctuary “built with hands”, with Moses’ hands the pattern or plans for was / were shown him on the mountain! And the ministers of its ministration were “priests on earth” after the Aaronic order mortal priests and not after the Order of Indestructible Life as Christ’s Ministration of the New Covenant was.
Instead of 17 John Owen and you may concoct 170 such different <different covenants>. They will be useless just the same.
<<The New was confirmed by the sacrifice and blood of Christ Himself (Heb 10:19-23; 12:24).>>
Yes, it was not only <confirmed>; the New Covenant was, the “Sacrifice Christ made of Himself”. The New Covenant is the Everlasting Covenant of God in Christ, ONE AND ONLY <<in respect of the Priesthood>>. Because Christ is Priest Himself while He is Sacrifice Himself. How can God have or made <<different covenants>> of <<differing priesthoods>>!? BANISH THE THOUGHT!
<<In the first covenant, the Priesthood was limited to Aaron and his posterity; in the New, Christ has an unchangeable priesthood in the power of an endless life (Heb 7:11-28)>> …and endlessly keep on CONFUSING <<the first covenant>> of your fantasies for God’s New Covenant for all times and dispensations in human need of redemption! Keep on CONFUSING <<the first covenant>> while you keep on denying the “first PLACE-of-refuge” the “first TENT with its ALTAR with its SERVICES with its PRIESTS on earth” : upon which John Owen and you and everyone else of the establishment of FAKE translators establish THEIR ‘covenants’—non-covenants, covenants of straw, covenants of air, vacuous covenants, covenants NOWHERE FOUND IN THE SCRIPTURES.
And so ad nihil forth.
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That is your privilege, but I do not see how it can be sustained.I deny the writer speaks of a <<Mosaic or Sinaitic covenant>> anywhere in Hebrews.
I deny: a <<‘first’ covenant>> at all spoken of in Hebrews 8.
I deny <<that is how the writer to the Hebrews speaks of it>>— <it> being the italicized word <covenant> in the KJV in Hebrews 8:7 and 8:13.
Heb. 8:6. 'But now He [Christ] has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.'
Christ has a better ministry. Better than what? Better than the earthly, Jewish priests spoken of in verses 3-5. He is also the Mediator of a better covenant. Better than what? Better than the covenant under which the Jewish priests operated-- the Mosaic or Sinaitic covenant. The better covenant was founded upon better promises. Better than what? Better than the promises concerning the Mosaic or Sinaitic covenant For example:
'Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth I mine. And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation' (Exodus 19:5-6).
Contrast this with
'But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people........' (1 Peter 2:9).
The promises which were conditional under the Mosaic covenant are unconditional under the New Covenant.
Hebrews 8:7. 'For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.'
It is agreed that the word 'covenant' is not found in the Greek. It has been supplied by every translation that I'm aware of to help the sense. 'If that first' what? Obviously 'covenant' because that is what the writer was talking about in verse 6. But let us carry on.
Hebrews 8:8-9. 'Because finding fault with them [the Israelites], He says, "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah -- not according to the covenant I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord."' The quotation is from Jeremiah 31:31-32. So God made a covenant before, and the one He is promising to make will not be like it. The Israelites failed to continue in the terms of the covenant described above in Exodus 19:5-6, so God promises to make a new covenant. New compared with what? New compared with the covenant that the Israelites did not keep: ie. the Mosaic or Sinaitic covenant. So what's different in this new covenant compared with the Mosaic covenant?
Hebrews 8:10. '"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel and the house of Judah after those days, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God and they shall be My people."'
In the Mosaic covenant, God's laws were written on tablets of stone and were largely disobeyed; in the new covenant they are written on the hearts of God's people. That is how the promise of 1 Peter 2:9 can be unconditional.
I have laid this out as clearly and simply as I can. I understand that you may not like it, but it all seems so blatantly obvious that I cannot see how it can reasonably be denied. But if you do deny it, then we shall have to agree to disagree. I can't go on arguing over something as simple and straightforward as this.
Had not Hebrews 8:7 and 13 been so faulty suggested to be translated the way the KJV did, the total history of Christianity would have looked very, very different, and the so called 'dispensationalism' of modern times the age of LAWLESSNESS in Christianity, would have exposed itself in another way impossible to imagine. Only the coming again of Jesus Christ on the clouds of the heavens will repair the damage done indelibly. "Come, Lord Jesus! Come quickly, COME!"
That is your privilege, but I do not see how it can be sustained.
Heb. 8:6. 'But now He [Christ] has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.'
...which is exactly how I, too, see, how indeed, <<it is sustained>>.
"But now He has obtained a ministry more excellent inasmuch as indeed also of a better Covenant He is Mediator, which on better promises has been enacted / established."
"But now He has obtained" [nun de tetuchen]
"a ministry" [leitourgias]
"more excellent" [diaphorohteras]
"inasmuch as" ['hosohi']
"indeed also" ['kai']
"of a better" [kreittonos]
"Covenant" [Diathehkehs]
"He is" [estin]
"Mediator" [Mesitehs]
"which on better promises" [hehtis epi kreittosin epangeliais]
"has been enacted / established" [nenomothetehtai]
Why do you -- not I -- differ and say you <<do not see how it can be sustained>>?!
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Christ has a better ministry. Better than what? Better than the earthly, Jewish priests spoken of in verses 3-5. He is also the Mediator of a better covenant. Better than what? Better than the covenant under which the Jewish priests operated-- the Mosaic or Sinaitic covenant. The better covenant was founded upon better promises. Better than what? Better than the promises concerning the Mosaic or Sinaitic covenant
Again, Christ's, is the "better ministry". <<Better than what? Better than the earthly, Jewish priests spoken of in verses 3-5.>> Again, He is also the Mediator of the "Better Covenant". Better than what? <<Better than the 'old' covenant under which the Jewish priests operated>>-- which they swore to keep. It cannot even be justly called <<the Mosaic or Sinaitic covenant>>, because the children of Israel, in fact, ALL MEN, broke and still break their oath as soon as they have sworn it! But, again, the Better Covenant -- GOD'S WORD OF OATH was and still is and forever will be founded upon God's, "better promises"--GOD'S PROMISES CONCERNING JESUS CHRIST OUR SAVIOUR. Which are "better", than the promises of the Israelites which were not GOD'S promises <<concerning the Mosaic or Sinaitic covenant>> even, but are the promises of sinners --- in fact the disloyalty and unfaithfulness of all men of all times.
Again, God never made an 'old covenant'!
Again, there not even is a <<Mosaic or Sinaitic covenant>> the fabrication of the dispensationalists.
For example:
'Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth I mine. And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation' (Exodus 19:5-6).
Contrast this with
'But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people........' (1 Peter 2:9).
The promises which were conditional under the Mosaic covenant are unconditional under the New Covenant.
Not the promises which were conditional under the Mosaic <<covenant>>, but something as simple and straightforward as this, the Mosaic "ministration".
See? The Scriptures lay this out as clearly and simply as possible, that it cannot reasonably be denied.
Hebrews 8:8-9. 'Because finding fault with them [the Israelites], He says, "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah -- not according to the covenant I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord."' The quotation is from Jeremiah 31:31-32. So God made a covenant before, and the one He is promising to make will not be like it. The Israelites failed to continue in the terms of the covenant described above in Exodus 19:5-6, so God promises to make a new covenant. New compared with what? New compared with the covenant that the Israelites did not keep: ie. the Mosaic or Sinaitic covenant. So what's different in this new covenant compared with the Mosaic covenant?
GOD, made The Covenant of his grace, before, in the Eternal Council of God. God never made a <<covenant (that) will not be like it>>, the only He ever made. God never <promised> something <<like it>>, ever; and absolutely not in Hebrews 8:8-9 or Jeremiah 31:31-32!
That <<the Israelites failed to continue in the terms of the covenant described in Exodus 19:5-6>> which was GOD'S Covenant promised to the Israelites to be ministered by them, and which was covenanted by them to be kept; but which undertaking and commitment covenanted by them, they immediately BROKE because of their unbelief. So God promised to make "THIS Covenant" of HIS, new by writing the same Covenant in the hearts of men, mind you, on the stone tables OF MEN'S HEART, making it a greater miracle than writing it in letters that kill on tables of STONE!
<<New compared with what?>> You answered wisely, <<New compared with the covenant that the Israelites did not keep>>, that is The Covenant of GOD'S WORD to the Israel from the mountain they did not keep, which is not and never can be <<the Mosaic or Sinaitic covenant>> of ISRAEL'S FALSE WORDS of promise and faked faithfulness itself!
<<So what's different in this new covenant compared with the Mosaic covenant?>>
Everything of human invention and substitute for the "TRUE TABERNACLE NOT MADE WITH HANDS".
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