HELL - Is Luke 16:19-31 a Parable or a True, Factual Account? Proof?

[Preacher Ron]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

They don't. Lazarus was in paradise, not heaven. Paradise was a separate section from hell separated by a great gulf and was where the OT saints went after death. When Jesus died and descended into hell, he took the Paradise part (with the OT saints) to heaven. That is why He could say to the thief on the cross "This day you will be with me in Paradise."

BTW, this is a true factual story, not a parable. </font>[/QUOTE]I just wanted to say that you are absolutely right!

Preacher Ron

 

[Alcott]

Originally posted by QuickeningSpirit:
If hell isn't outer darkness, then what is?

Those who are cast into ourter darkness are those who are in hell.

Did you think I am unaware that other scripture passages refer to "outer darkness?" I asked you to show it in this passage. And FYI scripture does not use the word "hell." That is a Germanic word which is from a Norse mythological concept, akin to Valhalla. The scriptural words for places of the dead were gehenna (a large burning refuse); sheol, the grave; and hades, Jesus' word in this passage.

As soon as you can explain "outer darkness" with comprehension, then you'll see that those in it can't see anything but that which is beyond their reach, that is why it is called "outer" darkness.

That's ridiculous. If those "in it" can only see 'which is beyond their reach (not see that is within their reach), that would be inner darkness. and outer light.

The metaphoric resemblence of Father Abraham/father of all Israel, is God Himself,literally.

More incompetence. If scripture says those words I would believe them. It does not.

Trying to understand the torment in hell, well, you just need the Lord to allow you to see things from that perspective.

You can see from the perspective of 'hell,' and I can't? OK.

Besides, Jesus never was the One to tell "stories".

What do you mean by that? I believe what Jesus said and trust it. I don't trust what you say.

 

[Alcott]

Originally posted by QuickeningSpirit:
The metaphoric resemblence of Father Abraham/father of all Israel, is God Himself,literally.

Make up your mind. Is this story literal, where Abraham is literally Abraham, or not?

 

[Precepts]

Originally posted by Alcott:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by QuickeningSpirit:
If hell isn't outer darkness, then what is?

Those who are cast into ourter darkness are those who are in hell.

Did you think I am unaware that other scripture passages refer to "outer darkness?" I asked you to show it in this passage. And FYI scripture does not use the word "hell." That is a Germanic word which is from a Norse mythological concept, akin to Valhalla. The scriptural words for places of the dead were gehenna (a large burning refuse); sheol, the grave; and hades, Jesus' word in this passage.

As soon as you can explain "outer darkness" with comprehension, then you'll see that those in it can't see anything but that which is beyond their reach, that is why it is called "outer" darkness.

That's ridiculous. If those "in it" can only see 'which is beyond their reach (not see that is within their reach), that would be inner darkness. and outer light.

The metaphoric resemblence of Father Abraham/father of all Israel, is God Himself,literally.

More incompetence. If scripture says those words I would believe them. It does not.

Trying to understand the torment in hell, well, you just need the Lord to allow you to see things from that perspective.

You can see from the perspective of 'hell,' and I can't? OK.

Besides, Jesus never was the One to tell "stories".

What do you mean by that? I believe what Jesus said and trust it. I don't trust what you say. </font>[/QUOTE]I see you haven't answered what "outer darkness" is, but instead you resort to Hebrew to tell me "hell" isn't hell. Each of the Hebrew words; Gehenna, Hades, and Sheol are typlified as a portion in hell, but you knew that didn't you?

You diverted the topic in the attempt to avert the definition of outer darkness. Here let me give you what "educated people" say about outer darkness:
Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Cast out of the kingdom, into what? "into" outerdarkness, where there is weeping, and gnashing of teeth.

2805 klauymov klauthmos klowth-mos’

from 2799; TDNT-3:725,436; n m

AV-weeping 6, wailing 2, weep 1; 9

1) weeping, lamentation

1030 brugmov brugmos broog-mos’

from 1031; TDNT-1:641,110; n m

AV-gnashing 7; 7

1) a gnashing of teeth
1a) used to denote extreme anguish and utter despair of men consigned to eternal punishment in hell
2) snarling, growling: in the sense of biting

These two actions; weeping and the gnashing of teeth, are in this "outer darkness". Notice the "1a" definition of the Greek in relevance to "gnashing of teeth". Uh, outer darkness is hell, the same place the rich man is still in today.

 

[Precepts]

Originally posted by Alcott:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by QuickeningSpirit:
The metaphoric resemblence of Father Abraham/father of all Israel, is God Himself,literally.

Make up your mind. Is this story literal, where Abraham is literally Abraham, or not? </font>[/QUOTE]You tell me how God made Abraham the "father of many nations" including the time he was long dead, and I'll tell you how the Jews , to whom Jesus was speaking, look at Abraham as their Father. Duuuuhhhhhh!

"father" Abraham is NOT actually Abraham in the flesh, duuuuuhhhh! d-d-d-duh!

 

[Alcott]

You are trying to convince me this story is not literal. You failed.

 

[Precepts]

Originally posted by Alcott:
You are trying to convince me this story is not literal. You failed.

I never set out to do that, nor will I, it is not my part to do so. It is the Lord's. I've given some of my proofs to why it is literal and you have not accepted, that is your perogative, but not to my advice.

You do seem to think it is your duty to convince me otherwise. You are wasting your time.

Good day, not Godspeed

 

[Alcott]

Originally posted by QuickeningSpirit:
I've given some of my proofs to why it is literal and you have not accepted, that is your perogative, but not to my advice.

Exactly the opposite. You have claimed Abraham in the passage is not literally Abraham.

 

[Precepts]

Originally posted by Alcott:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by QuickeningSpirit:
I've given some of my proofs to why it is literal and you have not accepted, that is your perogative, but not to my advice.

Exactly the opposite. You have claimed Abraham in the passage is not literally Abraham. </font>[/QUOTE]No I didn't, just because you misunderstood and say I did does not make me a liar. I said, for the record, that "Father Abraham" is not literally Abraham in the flesh, but He is metaphorically represented here as the Father of all Israel and as God the Father. Who else could be with Lazarus in Paradise/Abraham's Bosom, and speak to the rich man in literal hell? Only God.

Too bad you limit your self.

 

[Alcott]

Is Abraham in this passage literally Abraham, or not literally Abraham? Your Yes or No will end this question. It will continue only if you give less than, or other than, one of those 2 straight answers.

 

[LadyEagle]

Sheeagle, you didn't answer my question.

As to the person who tried to answer my question, please explain how this LITERAL soul wanted to have a drop of water on it. Isn't that impossible?

DD, what is with this tongues business?

What does the soul look like, Casper the Friendly ghost or what? Doesn't your soul look like you? (plus or minus a few pounds)

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
What does the soul look like, Casper the Friendly ghost or what? Doesn't your soul look like you? (plus or minus a few pounds)

Please tell me this isn't a serious question.

The soul looks like the person?

Ohhh, there goes another rib.

 

[Russ Kelly]

There are arguments for both views which have not been mentioned.
PARABLE: Luke 16 is surrounded by parables in its comparisons to Matthew.
PARABLE: Unlike an allegory, it teaches one truth --that one does not get a second chance to be saved after death.
PARABLE: Not everything has to be literally true.
TRUE STORY: If soul-consciousness does not continue after death, then why would Jesus mislead his listeners by illustrating something from "pagan" theology?
TRUE STORY: The word for "hell" in Luke 16 is "hades" and not "gehenna-lake of fire." "Hades" is the same as the OT "sheol" which was a multi-compartment place for all conscious souls (at least until the resurrection?).
MY TENUOUS CONCLUSION: This is a parable illustrating the truths of (1) no second chance after death and (2) conscious torment of the lost soul after death, but not necessarily the same extent as that of the lake of fire. In Revelation 20, hades is cast into gehenna.

NOT A PRAGBLE: