HELL IS NOT LAKE OF FIRE

[Lacy Evans]

DHK,

You are building a straw man. We have explained that you must divide.

We have positional righteousness (Imputed to you based on Christ's perfect work of shedding his blood) which is absolutely perfect and incorruptible. In an absolute and eternal sense I have obtained absolute perfection because I am covered by absolutly sinless blood.

Now we also have what most refer to as practical righteousness. This is the imperfect righteousness (perfection/maturity)that we must strive for, we must wrestle for, fight for.

Trouble is folks want to wrestle where they should be resting. (Assurance of eternal salvation) and rest where thay should be wrestling. (Salvation from Our eternal Father's jealous chastening rod!)

Don't twist our words. each of us has made the distinction very clear.

It is evil to proclaim yourself sinless in your walk. (Only Christ ever was.) If you do, you make God a liar.

It is equally evil to say that we must attain to some level of fruit to know if we are eternally saved. Because we got all of his righteousness as a free gift (It is Finished!) when we first believed. If you say that you are not absolutely sinless in that sense, you also make God out a liar.

KJV Psalms 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.


KJV Romans 3:24-26
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26. To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Walk in the light for fellowship. Rest in the Blood for salvation.

Lacy

 

[Lacy Evans]

I am also reminded that if I die of a sudden heart attack or in an accident where I do not have the opportunity of not being able to go to my Heavenly Father and confess that willful sin, that I will be punished in that Baptist purgatory.

You very well might. Fear God. There is no respect of persons.

The thing is DHK, you are not a victim in this scenario. God is not bound to grant repentance or even a time for repentance. God promised a way out of the temptation in the first place, and you failed to take it. You would not be a victim, you would be a disobedient sinful son who waited too long to repent.

Now there is mercy, which we all will absolutely have to have to obtain the kingdom. But God has made abundant provision for our obtaining mercy.

KJV Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

KJV Matthew 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

KJV Matthew 6:14-15
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

KJV Luke 6:35-38
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

I cannot say whether the man who dies before he repents goes to Hell. (I wouldn't want to test it.) It depends on whether he has sown mercy, and forgiveness, and non-judgmentativeness toward others.

The returns according to Luke 6 are pretty promising, and pretty scary. It depends on what you sow.

KJV Matthew 18:32-35
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Lacy

 

[michelle]

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Trouble is folks want to wrestle where they should be resting. (Assurance of eternal salvation) and rest where thay should be wrestling. (Salvation from Our eternal Father's jealous chastening rod!)
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No one here has denied this or said otherwise. It is that you and others are claiming this is done after we physically die - in Hell, which is not biblical truth. God chastises us while still here on earth, in order that we come unto the perfect man, in this life. You also think the kingdom of God is something to come, rather than something you are already, now, as a saved person, part of. We do not look forward, or strive for something we already are part of, but rather strive IN it and recognize it. The millenial kingdom is meant for Israel, who God blinded in part, until the fulness of the gentiles be come in. It might do you well to do an in depth study on the book of Revelation. This will benefit you greatly, in understanding the millenial reign and the plans God has for that nation, and to which you seem to be confusing with the church.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[DHK]

It is not a straw man Lacy. It is one that I have brought up before, that has been avoided and has not been successfully answered. The Bible unequivocally says that we ALL have sinned, and we ALL are sinners. "Only God is true, but every man a liar." (Rom.3:4) We lie every die, sometimes wihout even realizing it. With many (Christians) it becomes habitual. In our society especially Christians become desenistized to sin. Abortions happen every day; it becomes so common place that the horrificness of the crime is not as great any more. Adultery is common place; it used to have a death penalty attached to it. Most teenageres (including those of evangelical Christians) have already experienced sex before marriage and think nothing of it. We have become desensitized to sin.

All have sinned, and horribly sinned. Jesus went to great depths to define the Law in Matthew 5. The sin of Murder (Thou shalt not commit murder), is simply getting angry with your brother. Which one of you has not done that? We all have committed murder according to Christ.

Jesus said: ye have heard by them of old time "Thou shalt not commit adultery, but I say unto that whoso shall look upon a woman to lust after her in his heart hath already committed adultery. What man has not committed adultery in him mind?

We are not perfect. We do not bring ALL of our thoughts into captivity to the obedience of Jesus Christ. That is a command. (2Cor.10:4-6)
Thus, like the Catholics, no one can be assured of entering into the Kingdom. This is not what the Bible teaches.
The Bible teaches:
Except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingeom of God. I have been born again. I will see the Kingdom.
DHK

 

[michelle]

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35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
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Notice that Jesus said from the Heart. Who dwells in the believers heart Lacy? Does the saved person have a cleansed heart or not Lacy? Can a saved person have a hardened heart? If so, how, if the Lord has cleansed it and is dwelling there? Please explain this to me.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[James_Newman]

Brother, Moses saw the promised land, but he didn't enter it.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by James Newman:
Brother, Moses saw the promised land, but he didn't enter it.

That again is chastening on earth. Then Moses died, and the Lord buried him. He went to Paradise, and now is in Heaven awaiting the resurrection. When he returns with Christ at the Second Coming he will enter into the Millennial Kingdom with all the other saints of God. He has already been punished for his sins on this earth.
DHK

 

[Marcia]

He didn't enter the physical promised land because he represented the law. The Law can't go into the promised land. However, Moses was with Christ at the Transfiguration. He made it to the real Promised Land.

 

[James_Newman]

Exodus 17:6 Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.

11 And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also.
12 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

1Corinthians 9
24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
1 Corinthians 10
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

All those things that happened in the Old Testament were pictures, shadows if you will, of the New Testament. Moses was not just a representation of the law, he also was a type of Christ, leading the Israelites out of bondage was a picture of Christ freeing us from the bondage of sin. The rock was also a picture of Christ, a rock that out of which flowed living water! Moses broke one of God's pictures when he smote the rock twice, for Jesus was only to be smitten once for our sins. That is why Moses was not allowed to lead the children into Canaan.

The promised land is a picture of the kingdom, and Moses not entering the promised land because of unbelief is a picture of us not entering the kingdom, because of unbelief.

Hebrews 4
1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

This is not talking about the gospel of our eternal salvation through the shed blood of our saviour! We do not labour to get saved. Salvation is not of works!! We labour to enter into the rest. The rest is on the seventh day. Six days He laboured, and on the seventh day He rested. We are not in the rest now, we are in the sixth day. The next day will be the 1000 year rest.

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Lets take a moment to look at this. The rest is the seventh day. A thousand years is as a day, and a day is as a thousand years. 6 thousand years from creation to, well, nowish, and the 7th millenium soon to be here will be the 1000 year kingdom, the 7th day, the rest.

So what of the promise to believers? not the conditional promise of reigning with Him if we suffer for Him, but the unconditional promise of salvation by grace through faith alone, not of works?

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The last day. It says everlasting life, and it says it starts on the last day. Believe on him, and be raised up on the last day, and never die again. That is the promise.

John 7
2 Now the Jew's feast of tabernacles was at hand.
37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

34 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the feast of tabernacles for seven days unto the LORD.
35 On the first day shall be an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
36 Seven days ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: it is a solemn assembly; and ye shall do no servile work therein.

The last day, that great day of the feast, when Christ stands up and says whosoever thirsts, come and drink, it is the eighth day. Not the seventh day.

All the pictures and types and parables fit together perfectly, when you realise that they are all telling one story. The bible is one book, written by many authors telling the story of one man and His coming kingdom on this earth. He wants us to reign with Him, and He has provided everything necessary for us to do so. He has paid the price of our sins, and He has freed us from the power of sin. Do you believe this? It's time to repent of our unbelief and start believing God's word.

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by DHK:
We are not perfect. We do not bring ALL of our thoughts into captivity to the obedience of Jesus Christ. That is a command. (2Cor.10:4-6) Thus, like the Catholics, no one can be assured of entering into the Kingdom.

Agreed! 100%!

This is not what the Bible teaches.

This is where I disagree.

Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. (1 Cor 9:26-27)

But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Phil 3:7-14)

The Bible teaches:
Except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingeom of God. I have been born again. I will see the Kingdom.

Except a man has British nationality, he cannot be the Prime Minister of the UK. I have British nationality, but it doesn't follow that I'm the Prime Minister of the UK. Think about it.

 

[michelle]

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DHK quoted:

The Bible teaches:
Except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingeom of God. I have been born again. I will see the Kingdom.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bartholomew quoted:

Except a man has British nationality, he cannot be the Prime Minister of the UK. I have British nationality, but it doesn't follow that I'm the Prime Minister of the UK. Think about it.
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Hebrews 8

1. Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2. A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
3. For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
4. For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5. Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
6. But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11. And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


This is still YET TO COME for Israel. The church already possesses this. So please tell me, what exactly is meant by " established on better promises" for the New Testament/Covenant believers (the church)? What exactly are these "better promises" than the Old Covenant was established?


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[David M Walker]

Originally posted by James Newman:
All the pictures and types and parables fit together perfectly, when you realise that they are all telling one story. The bible is one book, written by many authors telling the story of one man and His coming kingdom on this earth. He wants us to reign with Him, and He has provided everything necessary for us to do so. He has paid the price of our sins, and He has freed us from the power of sin. Do you believe this? It's time to repent of our unbelief and start believing God's word.

AMEN!

I believe, I believe!! Let's seek His Kingdom

Holy Father, Please reveal Your truth regarding Your coming Kingdom. I pray that You would allow all views on this board to come from Your Word and ONLY Your Word. In Jesus' Name I pray, Amen

 

[av1611jim]

"Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you."

Too, often this is quoted without understanding.

It has been said that the Bible is a book of His-story. Meaning, it is His story, front to back. It is about His Kingdom, past, present, and future.
"Strive to enter in at the narrow gate."

Too many folks want to literalize the past Kingdom, allegorize the present Kingdom, and trivialize the coming Kingdom.

All we Kingdom believers want is for you, our fellow brethren, to be there also. In the literal, physical, earthly, visible, millenial Kingdom of Christ.

That's not so hard to understand is it?
:love:In His service;
Jim

 

[michelle]

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"Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you."
=-------------------------------------------------


The Lord explains this quite well in HOW (by FAITH) we are to seek the Kingdom (within you) and His righteousness (the shed blood of Jesus Christ), to which we are told is within the believer/saved. First we must seek it, in order to have it within us. The Lord has also made it quite clear HOW we are to go about doing this, and where the righteousness comes from:


John 3

1. There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2. The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10. Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11. Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13. And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15. That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


Romans 1

15. So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.


Romans 3

20. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22. Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24. Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25. Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26. To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30. Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[av1611jim]

Michelle said,"The Lord explains this quite well in HOW (by FAITH) we are to seek the Kingdom (within you) and His righteousness (the shed blood of Jesus Christ), to which we are told is within the believer/saved. First we must seek it, in order to have it within us. The Lord has also made it quite clear HOW we are to go about doing this, and where the righteousness comes from:"

See what I mean?
Literalize, allegorize, trivialize. If the Kingdom of God is only spiritual and invisible, i.e.within you, then how is this possible? "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets IN the Kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out." LK 13:28
Obviously it is MORE than just invisibly with in you.


Things that make you go...HHHHMMMMM!
In His service;
Jim

 

[michelle]

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See what I mean?
Literalize, allegorize, trivialize. If the Kingdom of God is only spiritual and invisible, i.e.within you, then how is this possible? "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets IN the Kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out." LK 13:28
Obviously it is MORE than just invisibly with in you.

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Because YOU are neglecting to recognize what the Lord has said concerning the nation of Israel. God is not finished with this nation, as there are many promises yet to fulfill concerning them as a NATION and as HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE, not for their sake, but for HIS HOLY NAMES SAKE.


Romans 11

Romans 11

1. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3. Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10. Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11. I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13. For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14. If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16. For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18. Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21. For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31. Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34. For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?
35. Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36. For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Lacy Evans]

Michelle,

Great Kingdom verse.

Romans 11
18. Boast not against the branches. (Israel under the old covenent)But if thou (Christian)boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I (Christian)might be graffed in.
20. Well; because of unbelief they(Jews) were broken off, and thou (Christian)standest by faith. Be not highminded(Christian), but fear:(Christian)
21. For if God spared not the natural branches(Jews) , take heed lest he also spare not thee.(Christian)

Especially when compared to these!

Joh 15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

1Co 3:15
If any man's(Christian's) work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, (Christian, Once enlightened always enlightened.) and have tasted(Heb 2:9) of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

("But Lacy can't you see, A Christian can't bear thorns!") Then who is it talking to?! And why? A non-believer can't "fall away". What would he fall away from? And does he get saved by not bearing thorns? Kinda confusing. Why tell him not to bear thorns? Why not just tell him how to get saved and be forgiven for all the thorns he already bore?

Lacy

 

[michelle]

Lacy, why do you neglect all the other verses of scripture? Please pay close attention to the CONTEXT of the passage. What is Paul talking about, and what is HIS POINT. His point is that God is not yet finished with Israel, and that they have been blinded in part, and those of the election of Grace have ATTAINED what Israel looked forward to UNTIL the the fullness of the gentiles come in.

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4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10. Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11. I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
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The Lord is clearly showing us here, that the kingdom of God for Israel, has been put off by blindness from God, UNTIL the fullness of the gentiles come in to which the election of grace HAVE ALREADY ATTAINED THROUGH and because of THEIR UNBELIEF/blindness, and then ALL ISRAEL shall be SAVED. One must be born again, in order to enter in, or see the kingdom of God. The church is a mystery, and we have much better promises than Israel, as the church is the bride of Christ, and we are the FIRSTFRUITS.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

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("But Lacy can't you see, A Christian can't bear thorns!") Then who is it talking to?! And why? A non-believer can't "fall away". What would he fall away from? And does he get saved by not bearing thorns? Kinda confusing. Why tell him not to bear thorns? Why not just tell him how to get saved and be forgiven for all the thorns he already bore?
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Because Lacy, the word of God is written to and for all men. Only those who are saved, and indwelt by the Holy Spirit can discern and understand God's word properly as the Holy Spirit gives one understanding. It is God's word that convicts the saved, and unsaved person. Those who are saved, have FAITH. Those who are unsaved do not. They hear the word, and may believe it temporarily, but only in the mind, and not from the heart. The Jews of Jesus day, knew the word of God, and lived it also, but it was far from thier hearts. If they had FAITH it would have been in thier hearts and remained and grown. Those who only have head knowledge, but not heart knowledge, are those who fall will eventually fall away as it is not sown in the good soil, to which is the heart, to which is where FAITH comes from.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[James_Newman]

Michelle, I hear so much about this faith, that I would like to have some of my own. According to the bible, just a small amount of it, like a grain of mustard seed, will allow me to tell a mountain to shove off, and it will do it! I would like to come by sometime to see this faith in action, if you could please tell me when is the next time you will exercise your faith in moving a mountain.