HELL IS NOT LAKE OF FIRE

[michelle]

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"Where will the the Christian who is not accounted worthy of Kingdom reign be during Christ's millenial reign?
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THere is no such thing as a saved person to be accounted unworthy, as CHrist atonement is sufficient for ALL who are saved and have accepted and believe His sacrifice - and it is Jesus CHrist who is accounted worthy. This is the problem you are having in understanding the truth. Let me ask you something. If all are found unrighteous by God, and that our works are as filthy rags, how then is it that Abraham is now with the Lord? Is Abraham in fiery hell? HOw is it that Abraham, was found in paradise, and NOT in fiery torments? Was it because of Abrahams works? NO. God has said it was HIS FAITH, and with FAITH automatically comes OBEDIENCE. Was Abraham perfect in his life? No. Was King David, perfect in his life? No. What is accounted to them for righteousness is their FAITH, not their works. When a saved person dies, their spirit only goes to one of two places today (after the ascension of Jesus Christ: Hell or Heaven. Paradise was taken up to heaven with our Lord, as he led those that were captive into captivity. Jesus won victory over death at the cross. Hell could NOT hold those who were found righteous by FAITH. Our righteousness is our FAITH in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and his death, burial, and resurrection. When we die, our spirit REMAINS with the Lord. It does NOT go to HELL. This is a false teaching. Hell is the spiritual abode for those who have not been covered with the blood of Christ, and CANNOT be in the PRESENCE of the Lord. No sinner is allowed in heaven, nor can they stand in the presence of the Lord without being burnt up, as the Lord is a consuming FIRE.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by JohnBaskette:
"Where will the the Christian who is not accounted worthy of Kingdom reign be during Christ's millenial reign?

The answer is a holding place called hell during The Kingdom Age. This is the reason all in Hell are judged out of "The Lamb's Book of Life before Hell is cast into the LOF. Of course the fearful,unbelieving & non-Christians await judgement @ The Great White Throne.

This is absolute heresy and has no foundation in Scripture. It is a Catholic doctrine of purgatory. Like Dr. Bob said it is the makings of a cult. It is only justifiable by reading into Scripture things that are not there.
The same way that the Catholics justify infant baptism--they baptized all the "unmentioned" infants in the jailor's household. Some go as far as to say that they baptized all the infants in the 3,000 that got saved on the Day of Pentecost. How ludicrous. They ignore the fact that they had to believe to be saved. You do the same kind of thing.

You ignore the fact that the gift of God is eternal life. Eternal life never ends. If it ended in some sort of holding place or purgatory it wouldn't be eternal life any longer, it would only be temporary and God would be found to be a liar. How much do you ignore this fact, and not one of you have ever answered this objection. Eternal means just what it says--eternal, forever, everlasting. Does God lie?

Who decides whether or not a believer will be not worthy? How would a person with a glorified body like Christ, after already lived in Heaven for a thousand years, be cast into Hell. Ridiculous!!

Revelation 20:15 does not say that any believer's name will be blotted out of the Book of Life. That is pure speculation and imagination. At the Great White Throne Judgement, all are unbelievers. And all their names will not be found in the Book of Life. The statement is for emphasis. Do not read more into the verse than is there.
DHK

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by DHK:
This is absolute heresy and has no foundation in Scripture. It is a Catholic doctrine of purgatory. Like Dr. Bob said it is the makings of a cult.

Is that the best you've got DHK? Because hollering and stomping ain't gonna sway me. I believed the same way you do for years. But This doctrine must be answered with scripture or accepted.

You ignore the fact that the gift of God is eternal life. Eternal life never ends.

Chastening in no way affects eternal life. I have said it a million times a Christian cannot lose his salvation. Eternal life doesn't end because we are excluded from rewards, and it doesn't end if we are sent to your (very hot) room for 1000 years without our supper.

KJV Psalms 139:7-8
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

There's some BIBLICAL assurance right there!

Who decides whether or not a believer will be not worthy?

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

How would a person with a glorified body like Christ, after already lived in Heaven for a thousand years, be cast into Hell. Ridiculous!!

Only Christ has a glorified body right now. We get ours either at the ressurrection or at the rapture. What would be the difference between waiting for negative rewards and positive rewards. I believe we have to wait for any reward.

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

At the Great White Throne Judgement, all are unbelievers. And all their names will not be found in the Book of Life. The statement is for emphasis.

I'm kinda stupid DHK, so you're gonna have to prove that statement from the Bible.

Lacy

 

[michelle]

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Chastening in no way affects eternal life. I have said it a million times a Christian cannot lose his salvation. Eternal life doesn't end because we are excluded from rewards, and it doesn't end if we are sent to your (very hot) room for 1000 years without our supper.

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How is it that Abraham, King David, etc. are now in Heaven with the Lord, and how they are also in the millenial kingdom? Did they not sin even after their FAITH? Does the church have better promises than Israel? And if so what is it, and then how come what you believe seem to teach the opposite of that? Is the millenial kingdom our reward? If so, how then is this a better promise, than that to which was given to Israel? You are confusing sins with rewards. All of our sins, past, present and future have been paid for in FULL by the BLOOD OF THE LAMB, and this is from the day we were born, until the very day we die, and leave the flesh. Our spirit is renewed, and continually growing, AS WE FOLLOW our Lord, who NNE CAN SNATCH US OUT OF HIS HAND and to which HE is able to KEEP US. If we are saved, we do not go to Hell. WE are rewarded in HEAVEN, to which NNE CAN GO if they are found in SIN. WE cannot even approach the HOLY throne of GOD today in prayer, if we are not COVERED BY THE PRECIOUS BLOOD OF THE LAMB.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:

At the Great White Throne Judgement, all are unbelievers. And all their names will not be found in the Book of Life. The statement is for emphasis.

[QB]

I'm kinda stupid DHK, so you're gonna have to prove that statement from the Bible.

No, you prove it to me. I stand with 2,000 years of orthodox teaching of the Bible. You stand with the teaching of a cult.

Revelation 20:11-15 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

The DEAD are beomg judged, and only the dead. They are the spiritually dead. The dead are those that are separated from God. Death in its very meaning means separation. Eternal death is eternal separation from God.

What is physical death?
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
--When the body is separated from the spirit it is physically dead. Death is separation.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--When the spirit is separated from God, that is spiritual death. Death is separation.

In every case in the Bible death is separation.
The GWT is a judgement of the dead, those that are forever separated from God, the damned, the condemned, the unjust.
There are no believers present there. Can you point to one? NO!
DHK

 

[JohnBaskette]

Yes, It is true “that Abraham, King David, ect…” Are in Heaven now They want to come back down to the new Earth where sin is removed here is the closest verse I found while searching today, Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”. The verse I was looking is where the Saints cried How long, O Lord, holy and true until we return and reign on Earth & He gave them white robes & said a little while… SOMETHING LIKE THAT, The words in italics are direct quotes.
Sorry if that isn’t a good answer. To your first question…

Your second question has many parts, right of I noticed, a false belief that TRUE CHRISTIANS CANNOT SIN. God, through John tells us in The Bible that none are without sin. I would quote The Bible here but that would be condescending to Christians, especially so-called Baptists.

‘Because you asked a question on a perceived answer to your previous you asked without hearing the answer, this is starting to get to me I’ll leave off until I see a valid question…

Here’s 1: Unless you are still trying to pick apart the Kingdom Doctrine, giving the benefit of the doubt, U said, NNE CAN SNATCH US OUT OF HIS HAND and to which HE is able to KEEP US. If we are saved, we do not go to Hell. WE are rewarded in HEAVEN, to which NNE CAN GO if they are found in SIN. WE cannot even approach the HOLY throne of GOD today in prayer, if we are not COVERED BY THE PRECIOUS BLOOD OF THE LAMB.
Good question, Obviously this is true God was speaking to Christians, Is God a Good Father? <Rhetorical question> Since He is & Loves us WE WILL BE CHASTISED HERE IN THIS AGE & in The One to come. This occurs before Christian’s will be eternally with the Father.
Any other questions have been answered in this thread earlier.. I’ll repeat myself again, HELL ENDS AFTER 1000 YEARS, & IS CAST INTO THE LOF after disobedient Christians ARE REMOVED B/C THEY ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE. I hope that’s clear

In Chist; John

 

[michelle]

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Yes, It is true “that Abraham, King David, ect…” Are in Heaven now They want to come back down to the new Earth where sin is removed here is the closest verse I found while searching today, Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”. The verse I was looking is where the Saints cried How long, O Lord, holy and true until we return and reign on Earth & He gave them white robes & said a little while… SOMETHING LIKE THAT, The words in italics are direct quotes.
Sorry if that isn’t a good answer. To your first question…
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Take a good long look at where these martyred saints are, and why they are there:


Revelation 6


9. And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11. And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


Think context of the book of Revelation, when this takes place, who is involved, and where John is in this vision. I tell you, it is in Heaven, as he sees Jesus Christ himself, open this seal, and then we see those souls under the alter which is IN HEAVEN. This is NOT HELL. These are the martyred saints during tribulation period - 70th week of Daniel.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

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Your second question has many parts, right of I noticed, a false belief that TRUE CHRISTIANS CANNOT SIN. God, through John tells us in The Bible that none are without sin. I would quote The Bible here but that would be condescending to Christians, especially so-called Baptists.
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Christians can and do sin. I never said they didn't.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

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Since He is & Loves us WE WILL BE CHASTISED HERE IN THIS AGE & in The One to come. This occurs before Christian’s will be eternally with the Father.
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If this is true, and we are chastised in our spirit (to which the Lord has already cleansed BTW), then how is it that ANYONE OF US who have FAITH including Old testament and New Testament believers, go into the millenial reign with Christ if we must FIRST suffer punishment in HELL? Who has been perfect in the flesh? Answer: Not ONE except for JESUS CHRIST.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[JohnBaskette]

Dear Michelle,
I'm beginning to wonder why I reply, as you apparently know the answer to some of the questions you put forth. Here is why, like you, I, not unlike you, hope it causes others to think... See the next reply ...

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by DHK:

The DEAD are beomg judged, and only the dead. They are the spiritually dead. The dead are those that are separated from God. Death in its very meaning means separation. Eternal death is eternal separation from God.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--When the spirit is separated from God, that is spiritual death. Death is separation.

In every case in the Bible death is separation.
The GWT is a judgement of the dead, those that are forever separated from God, the damned, the condemned, the unjust.
There are no believers present there. Can you point to one? NO!
DHK

You seem to think that these people are a different kind of dead from the people that are in the kingdom?? Other than the fact that they did not enter into life at the beginning of the millenium, I don't see any great distinctions drawn here.

Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

They are just the rest of the dead, who did not overcome and were not given crowns during the millennium. Whether they are saved is not apparent, because the book of life is opened at the great white throne, and these rest of the dead are separated there.

 

[JohnBaskette]

Michelle,
You couldn't be more correct, ALL HAVE SINNED & COME SHJORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD.ALSO: IF ANYONE SAYS HE IS W/OUT SIN HE IS A LIAR & THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM.

To be accounted worthy of the Kingdom doesn't require Sinless perfection. But relative rightiousness. Those that suffer will reign W/Jesus as He suffered once & for all.

The Relative Righteousness required for Kingdom Entrance is ONLY THROUGH HIS SHED BLOOD.
GOD, ICARNATE IN THE PERSON OF JESUS CHRIST IS THE ONLY ATTONEMENT FOR SIN! CHRIST'S SHED BLOOD DOES MORE THAN THAT, IT IMPOWERS US TO LIVE HOLY. ALSO: IF WE SHOW MERCY, HE'LL SHOW MERCY TO US & IF WE GO SOUL WINNING IT'LL COVER A MULTITUDE OF SINS... Sorry for the all caps,
I didn't see a good time to turn them off while typing..

 

[JohnBaskette]

The Great White Throne and Christ's judgement Seat are for TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE/REASONS..
No saved person will appear @ the GWT. judgement
but saved people may "suffer loss as well as receive rewards depending on or works.
our works do follow us.

 

[JohnBaskette]

Saved people will appear before Christ's Judgement Seat, YES, ALL THE SAVED.

 

[David M Walker]

(thanks to Lacy)

Prayerfully examine the following verses in light of “millennial exclusion”…..

1. Faith only (Belief) = eternally secure salvation:

2. Faith + works after salvation = kingdom inheritance

Print out, then read #1 & #2 before reading each verse.)

Jesus:

Matt 5:22-30
Matt 5:5-12
Matt 7: 21-23
Matt 8:12
Matt 10:28-39
Matt 12:31-32
Matt 13:37-50
Matt 18:1-35
Matt 24:13
Matt 24:42-25:30
Mk 9:38-50 (esp. v41)
Mark 13:32-37
Luke 6:20-ch
Luke 9:22-27 (Compare to 1 Co. 9:24-27)
Luke 12:41-48, 59
Luke 13:24-30
Luke 14: 25-35
Luke 17:32
Luke 18:28-30
Luke 22:34-36
John 6:37-40
John 12:23-27
John 15:1-11

Paul:

Acts 14:22
Acts 20:24-32
Rom 1:18
Rom 2:3-11
Rom 8:12-19
Rom 10:9
Rom 11:17-24
1 Cor 3:3, 9-18
1 Cor 6:9-10
1Cor 9:24-10:12
Gal 5:19-21
Gal 6:7-9
Eph 5:5-7
Phil 2: 12-16
Phil 3:11-14
Col 3:23-25
I Thess 5:23
II Tim 1: 18
II Tim 2: 10-13
II Tim 4:6-8
Hebrews 2:1-3
Heb 3:6-4:11
Heb 6:1-6, 12(Christian maturity)
Heb 10: 25-31
Heb 12

James:

James 1:12,21-25
James 2:5,13,24

Peter:

1 Pet 4:17-18
1 Pet 5: 3-6
2 Pet 1:5-11

John:

1 Jn 2:28
2 Jn 8

Jude: v5 (after he saved, he destroyed)

 

[David M Walker]

Originally posted by av1611jim:
DHK;
So the new Jerusalem is figurative? New heaven? New earth? All tears? Death? These are all firgurative?
Why pick and choose which is and which is not? Especially given the context? (Which some keep howling about)
As Bro Lacy has so neatly pointed out. "Whosoever was not" implicates that there are some who will be.
Otherwise, "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved" would make the same fatal error in wording. Clearly, the use of "whosoever" indicates that some will and some will not.
To my recollection, "whosoever" is only used 5 times in the entire Bible. And each time is it used to make clear that there is some who do and some who do not. Some who will and some who will not.
Therefore;
This verse in Rev.20 explicitly tells us that some will be found in the Book of life at this day.
BTW; When I hear my Savior and my God say "No More Death!", believe you, me, it will not be a relatively insignificant" term.!!!
In His service;
Jim

Do a search on "whosoever".... used more than 5 times. "Search words "whosoever" 162 results"

http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?search=whosoever&SearchType=AND&version=KJV&restrict=&StartRestrict=&EndRestrict=&rpp=25&language=english&searchpage=0&x=18&y=10

 

[Marcia]

Baptist theology and Bible study forum is not fun anymore since all the threads lately have been very unBaptist like postings about Christians going to hell and weird stuff like that. Maybe we should have a separate forum for non-Baptist theology in the Baptist Debate forums and keep this forum for debate on Baptist doctrine?

 

[James_Newman]

Marcia, Christ is calling His people to wake up from their spiritual slumber. He is coming soon. I dare not apologize for teaching the truth of a Christian's accountability for sin at the judhment seat. I also must deny the false doctrine of 'lordship salvation' or calvinism or arminianism, all works salvation under diferent guises. The truth is God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son. If you believe that, you are a child of God. If you are a child of God, you better act like one, your Father will be home any minute now...

 

[michelle]

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2. Faith + works after salvation = kingdom inheritance

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If this is true, how then is Abraham, Moses, King David, or ANYONE for that matter, able to return with Christ Jesus to earth for the millenial reign? If what you believe is true, NOT ONE PERSON will be able. They will ALL BE in HELL, according to your belief.


By the way, the millenial kingdom is not a REWARD. It is part of our inheritance as being a spiritual jew, but we have better promises than that of Israel. Can you guess what that is? What sayeth the scriptures?


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,'
michelle

 

[JohnBaskette]

Dear Michelle;
I don't have time to give your question RE: 'INHERITANCE' the time it deserves now b/c I'm waiting on my ride to Church (Sun10/24/04@9:00 Am.)
I'll get to it ASAP.
Thanks, Have a good Lord's Day!
John BTW: DID YOU GET MY ANSWER VIA E-MAIL?