Hell is:

I do not believe that God ever has said that Hell will be for a few millenniums and then sinners will be releaved from their agony and eternal destiny in this place of destruction. If I am wrong, please give me Scripture.

 

Hell is A lake of fire………………….Rev 20:15

wrong answer!.

the lake of fire is the destroyer of hell.

hell is not a place of eternal anything. it has a finite purpose and conclusion.

its occupants are emptied from hells abode and the abode of hell is thrown into the lake of fire and has an ending of purpose.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

the second death mentioned is the death (or conclusion of the purpose of death) and hell for they no longer serves a purpose in bringing glory to God.

next question, would be what is this righteous tool of God that destroys death and hell. It is not an enemy of God. and if the enemies of God are all under the righteous control of God. then the lake is meant towards delivering righteousness into light. What could the lake be?...
a symbolic vision of something?...but what?

2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

death and hell abolished. all enemies under righteousness. salvation and righteousness forever.. wheres death and hell? oh yea, its abolished because its an unrighteous enemy of The Lord Jesus Christ.

God is love and he is a consuming fire.

a spiritual fire consuming works of unrighteousness . and he doesnt change. his methodology towards his elect will be the same methodology to the unelect. that of purging unrighteousness, yet saving the soul.

Me2

 

Me2,

According to your philosophy the saved get to go to Heaven perhaps a few millenniums before the Lord cleanses sinners from their sins sometime down the line, and after a while He saves everyone who has ever lived, including, Stalin, Hitler, Saddam, Lenin and other of the most wicked people who ever lived. It is a free country to believe anything one chooses. This is a kind of spiritual universalism; only we good people get to Heaven a little ahead of the sinning crowd.

 

I think the greater fault in saying that eternal punishment for the wicked will end, is that what is the point of being saved?

There is great benefit to not being saved, at least, in this world. We can live as we please. We can do as we please. We can make money, or even crime, our sole aim in life. Afterall, we just get lost in the end..So, we miss out on being with God, which we sort of resent anyway.

In the end, it is not what we believe, nor what we want to believe, but what saith the scripture. Clearly, scripture tells us there is a heaven to be gained, and there is a hell to be shunned, and both destinies are eternal. The details are vague at best, and often clothed in poetical language.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Im not blind. nor am I illiterate.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

death and hell are finite. they have an ending.

so accept this by faith and move forward.

why are death and hell thrown into the lake?.

to be abolished by the power of resurrection.

if no one is in death and hell. they must be in eternal life and heaven for there is not any other alternate location other than the choices between death and eternal life. or heaven and hell to choose to go to..

logic tells you that the opposite of death and hell is eternal life and heaven, or in Johns symbolic terms..the lake of fire.

2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

anyhow Im no better than hilter, stalin or any other sinner that is born of this world.
Its all a matter of timing. not a degree of goodness
I was merely chosen to receive the spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ before them.

Me2

 

Me2,

So when will Stalin, Hitler and other similar kinds of persons going to get the Spirit, in your view?

What is going to make God change His opinion of their wicked lives after a few millenniums in Hell?

We all want to see this Scriptural support.

 

Hell is final - and it is the lake of fire.

In Matt 10 - Christ tells us that both body and soul are destroyed there. Destroy does not mean "made new".

Rev 14 tells us that it is the in the very presence of the Lamb and His holy ones and that it consists of agony and torment and fire and brimstone.

There is no "escape from hell" were the lost go to heaven.

In Christ,

Bob

 

If you want to take imagery to its conclusion, rather than consider the whole of scripture to establish doctrine, fire may consume, but it also rejuvenates. A forest fire is often God's way to preserve nature and bring on new growth. It is also called a purifying force in the spiritual realm. One verse does not a doctrine make.

Some scriptures use imagry and poetry to express spiritual truths. Certainly hell is the final destination of unbelievers. The actual makeup we just don't know. We can draw pictures in the mind, but that is the best we can do. It is eternal, and that is certain by the whole of scripture. It is not annihilation, and it is not a second-chance station.

Cheers,

Jim

 

"heaven" and "hell" are existences of spiritual relativity. they can exist in the same space. and they are both found within mankind.

Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Jesus filled all things. this includes heaven,
hell, death and the lake of fire. they are to one existence.

when those existing under the partial knowledge of evil and have their understanding opened to the knowledge of Good.
the power of the knowledge of Good will overcome the power of the knowledge of evil and the power of death and hell will be deminished until destroyed.

filling all things means that all righteousness has completely covered over all unrighteousness. or that all sin is covered over by the blood of the atonement of Christ. or that all mankind have recognized the power of righteousness is stronger than the power of unrighteousness.

meaning the powerlessness of death and hell has been recognized by every man, woman and child, not only by faith of Gods word but by experience and individual understanding.
this is the GWT judgement seat and the lake of fire.
faith and understanding combined.
pitting the power of evil against the power of Good and good prevailing not only taught by word but by experience.
this is the lake of fire and the process of purging the "works" (knowledge of evil) for mankind. the same methodolgy that the church is experiencing today. the combination of the knowledge of good and evil with faith in Gods word and the revelation of the understanding combined creating knowledge of truth.

hell is spiritual attitude reserved by God for those he wants to express the knowledge of evil through. (living by law w/o the spirit)

if I am unsaved. I have a teacher of the knowledge of evil and a teacher the knowledge of good. one teaches to follow law w/o spirit while the other teaches to live by faith in the work of another. this is Gods method of teaching mankind until all have come to the truth.

when the "gentiles" have been saved. then hell will be emptied and those occupants as they will understand the power of righteousness is sronger than the power of unrighteousness. or that living by grace through faith is stronger than living by law w/o the spirit of Christ.

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: (citizens of heaven or vessels of mercy)
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. (citizens of hell or vessels of wrath)
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
(citizens of heaven and hell or vessels of mercy and wrath)

Me2

 

When you boil it all down, Hell is the place and existence of eternal torment. 'Hell fire' is one of the modes of punishment. [Matt. 5:22,29,30] And this is only the Scripture in Matthew's Gospel.

The saved will be eternally in the Presence of God and the lost will find their eternal home in Hell fire.

 

Me2, what kind of universalism do you espouse?

Do you believe all people are automatically saved by Christ's death on the cross, or that all will eventually believe, even after death? Or what?

What in the Bible do you base these beliefs on?

 

I do not believe that all people will eventually be saved forever. Those who trust/believe in Jesus as their only hope of Heaven will be saved forever. [John 3:16]

Those who refuse and or reject Jesus will be lost forever in Hell. [John 3:18b & c]

Universalism is not a Christian belief; it is the belief system of Unitarians and other lost souls.

 

Ray, I hope you realize I am not supporting universalism. I asked this question of Me2 who seems to support it.

 

I have a theory -and I wouldn't make it a doctrine-that those who've never heard the Gospel are given a chance to receive or reject Christ at death. I could not, of course, offer any Scripture to support this, at least directly. It just seems possible, given the nature of the Saviour, and His attitude toward the poor, the weak, and yes, the sinner. I reject universalism, which runs contrary not only to Scripture, but to free will and justice.

 

We have one hurdle to this idea, Jude, Romans 1: 19,20

"Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."

Then, vs 24.."...wherefore God gave them up also to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts....."

The choice was given and the choice was made.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Ray, the bible seems to contradict your statements

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

if hell is an enemy of righteousness. then it is defeated before death. for the last enemy destroyed is the last enemy...death

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

my suggestion is to not literalize parables.

Me2

 

Marcia,

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

I believe it is appointed for man to be delivered into spiritual death be judged and face the verdict.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Jesus tasted death for every man.

I espouse the salvation of all men through the salvation process defined by the bible. I believe in the reconciliation of All Gods creation to be eventually placed into the image of christ.

I believe that all men will be delivered into spiritual death via the calling of God. wether in this age, or the next to come.

the law convicts all men that they are a transgressor against the law. that is its task.
they are delivered into spiritual death and judged before God by the conviction of the law.
yet until the law is given to each and every individual. mankind must wait its turn for it is enevitable.
in other words. some belive that physical death means spiritual death. I dont, for the initiation of the work of the law hasnt taken place.
salvation is the beginning of a process that has no end. a process that each and every person will begin wether the beginning starts in this age or the next.the key is the introduction of the law.

If God states lets make man in our image. it fully encompasses the process of salvation within its proceedures for each and every human born.

just as the church goes through this process today. the proceedure is the same as all men will be convicted. man agrees that they deserve spiritual death and stand before God to be judged and be introduced to their propitiator and saviour Jesus Christ. God hasnt multiple plans. He only has one plan for everyone. one eneitable destination for everyone.

everyone is automatically saved by the act of Jesus sacrifice on the cross. yet it is the timing of God towards each individual to bring into the understanding of what occurred.

I believe in universal reconciliation of all men.

yet when examining the plans preceeding this enevitability towards each person born. we have the next age to come whereas a spiritual battle between good and evil will be occurring. this battle will be displayed by the actions and attitudes of individuals acting as witnesses. wether towards an example of good or evil with the world watching and choosing what their desires of their own spiritual responses are to become.
keeping in mind that spiritual death and hell still exists within the next age to come. only that physical death will no longer be a hinderance.

Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

abolishing death means that everyone HAS to proceed through salvation and recognize that death indeed has been abolished. not will be some day.
but has been abolished.
God is proving to mankind that what he has said he will do.
he will produce the needed evidence towards his entire creation. each and every man woman and child.
this is the was God works. His word goes forth. it is received by faith.

2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

this is a faith promise to me. but for me to comprehend this. I must recognize that I have received the actual resurrected spirit within me as proof that death has been abolished towards myself.
yet this is also an absolute statement. for Jesus to be called lord towards every knee and every tounge. he must proove this arrival of the resurrected spirit within all men. so that all men recognize that death has been abolished completely.

Rom 14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

the account will be the same. everyone will have received the spirit,body and mind of the resurrected man...jesus christ within them.

Phi 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
Phi 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

name above every name?
every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord.

1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

I leave you with one final thought. without the holy spirit in man. man cannot confess that Jesus is Lord.
the Holy Spirit will be in all men,
within the resurrected spirit of Christ within all men.

you just Got to have faith that God will do as he states. even if you havent seen it occur yet...

Me2

 

Ray,

I agree that unitarian universalism is a cult. It excludes the fact that all men must be convicted of Gods law. Be brought into spiritual death. Be judged of God. Be substituted in judgement by Jesus christ. be atoned of Sin by Gods lamb. expereince spiritual resurrection and the life within the resurrected spirit. these guys believe they just live and die and go to God..like Karma and the hindu religion.

universal reconciliation is based on the resurrection of Jesus christ and placing ones faith into the atoning work of Christ for the taking away of sin and unrighteousness.
its a matter of changing ones eschatology of Gods goals and the eternal nature of hell. then one can see Gods goals and nature differently as opposed to the teachings of orthodox religion concerning christianity, and the nature of God.

be careful what you espouse ray, didnt Jesus come to save the lost? thats everyone isnt it?

Luk 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

everyone was lost when Jesus came to earth.

and if any go to "hell for an eternity" then they will remain lost never to be "found". wont they?

Me2

 

Universalism, regardless of whatever form it assumes, is heresy. Period.

Jesus came to seek and save the lost, but the lost can reject Christ and thus remain spiritually dead and eternally damned. It's only to those that receive Him that God gives the authority to be His children.

 

I concur with that, Thomas.

My original question to Me was: What is the point in being saved to begin with? If salvation is not only unto something it is also from something. If universalism is so, there is no point in salvation. Live as I please, do as I please. It is only a question of time to benefits.

Cheers,

Jim

"Except a man be born again he shall not SEE the kingdom of God."