Hell is:

"The Lord trieth the righteous, but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup" Psalm 11:5-6.

When you acknowledge God's hatred of the wicked you have no problem understanding His horrible judgment on them. The problem with universalism in all its forms is that it assumes God has some sort of love for the finally impenitent. Such is not the case but, as David also said in the 5th Psalm,

"The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing; the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man."

Mark Osgatharp

 

Posted by Me2

There is no Biblical support for this statement. Being made in the image of God does not automatically allow fallen sinful man to be in God's presence. Our image is marred by sin.

You say Jesus tasted death for all men and quote several verses to show that Jesus conquered death and sin. Yes, this is true, but we are not automatically reconciled with God by this act. Otherwise, why would the message of Jesus and the Bible be to repent and confess sin and believe in Christ?

Jesus conquered death for us but we must believe in Him to have the benefit of what he did on the cross.

As far as hell and death being thrown into the lake of fire -- hell here is the grave. This does not mean no eternal punishment - that is what the lake of fire is.

 

I'm with you in the case of universalism. But the reason those that receive him receive him is because they were first born again from above.

Their action is a result of their being born from above, not the cause of it. Read John 1:12-13.

 

Jim,

first it is God who chooses the order of mans salvation. not man.

second there are many who are called, who reach no further than a child like comprehension of Gods goals towards mans salvation.

third. it is God who specifically designs who will enter into the inner sanctuary and the holy of holies within the kingdom of God. not babes in christ. not children in christ. but those seasoned and trained and knowledgeable for the workings of the kingdom.
their entrance denotes their inheritance to the duties they have been called to accomplish. and that is to carry out the will of the father through the atonement and covering over of all sin by the abolishement of all enemies of righteousness. chiefly the enemies of righteousness being satan, hell, and death.

wether your the established part within the inheritance, or you are the enemy called of God to portray unrighteousness before the sons of God.

you will be there participating. why?. because you are presently being drawn of the father via the law. wether to righteousness sake to his son. or drawn towards unrighteousness sake to satan.

you have been called to be a part of this process.

God is in control of this entire process in this age as well as into the next age. he is choosing vessels of righteousness and vessels of unrighteousness to be used to prove to all men that righteousness is greater than unrighteousness.

in this age is the calling and training of the sons of God. the next age begins the harvest and reconciliation of all Gods children.

If you believe you are a part of this process. then live it to its fullest wherever it leads you. God is always in control of your destiny.
He is its author and finisher of your faith.

If you believe you are not a part of this process then turn and walk away. for if God doesnt convict you otherwise. you are still in his will for your life. whichever direction you walk.

Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Phi 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

Me2

 

Marcia,

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

adam is a prototype of this image. he is not the "final" design God intends. he is not in righteousness for he couldnt sin.
the image of man was always to be that of being in the resurrected spirit of Christ.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

1Co 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.

1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

adam , the prototype is earthy; next to become a combination of earthy and heavenly. to further become heavenly after the purging of the works of the earthy.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

the slothing away of the finite physical will take place whereas we will have an image of the earthy yet without its physical and finite impurities.

an absolute form that doesnt decay nor change.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Gods methodology is to create billions of copies of his son. with the exact spiritual connection with the father and with each other.
his design includes mankind to be a progressive part as we create these connections between each other without hinderances.
in this world. we have hinderances that keep us apart. spiritually emotionally and mentally. in the next age we will learn to recognize each other without these incumberances.

mankind will be closer to each other than the closest relationship we find on earth today.

exactly, yet this process is in full control of the father. it is his design whos eyes and ears are opened and when. when we have faith. It is not anything of man, but a replacement of our old spirit with that of his sons. we now can communicate by faith with our father and have his desires to fulfill.

hell is a state of reprobation. God places some there to serve him in another way. they teach what they understand to others about God, even though it is error. they desire to gain Gods knowledge. yet they do so through their carnal lusts and not in accordance with the will of the father through the spirit of christ. it is not spiritual death. it is not the grave. it is a state of reprobation of living by the law without the spirit of Christ.

if there were any flames within hell. they would be of lust. of Gain to be Godlike in knowledge. tormented by fear knowing that their choices might not be correct and could suffer punishment if and when they meet the "real" God.

1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

and being being tormented of some future Judgement of God

Luk 8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, [thou] Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.

1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

those chosen to be in hell live by their own carnal knowledge of who they think God is. of Who they think man is.
they do not posess the spirit of Christ wihtin them.
they do not offer love. they fear God.
they compete with the true image of Christ.
they real image forgives mans trespasses. the false christ hold man responsible until the man has paid God in full...
which 1.has already been done.
and 2.is impossible.

Me2

 

I would suggest, Me2, that if you want people to read your posts, SHORTEN them...

 

making large absolute contexts into small finite contexts hurts my brain. and proves beyond a shadow of doubt I cant type. thanks for the suggestion.

 

While I denounce a universal salvation, one in which all human beings will be eventually saved, we still must uphold the Biblical truth that Jesus death and atonement was for every sinner as most clearly penned in the words of the Apostle John, both in John 3:16 and I John 2:2. Our Lord died for the sins not merely for the minority/elect but ' . . . the sins of the whole world.' These words coming from God through John, go one full step beyond "John Calvin's Institutes." Humankind will be without excuse when they stand before a holy God; no one will be able to say He shut me out of being part of the church, through grace. The Lord is a God of justice and does not arbitrarily select humans for damnation. The true Gospel is still open to 'as many as receive Christ.' [John 1:12] We who have been transformed by the mighty energy and Person of the Holy Spirit were born not by human endeavor or 'good works', nor by birth-right, but through the work of the Triune Godhead.

Those eventually saved by God were never seen as being the majority of the human family. [Matthew 6:14 & Luke 12:32] A Universalistic view of redemption merely portrays the 'soft underbelly' of those who only wish that all sinners will finally go into the Presence of God forever in the celestial realm, regardless of their rejection of the crucified One.

 

if Jesus was not resurrected from spiritual death.

this would prove that death and hell were more power and has the right to hold every human being created there because of the unrighteous transgressions against Gods law..

yet peering into revelations and reading the vision that John describes. provides further proof that Jesus has indeed been successfully resurrected from spiritual death. the simple observation that death and hell and the sea gives up their dead.
not voluntarily. but because their sin and unrighteousness has been paid for. and these environments designed to hold those who have committed unrighteous acts against God no longer have the legal right to hold them.

they have been bought with a price.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

their works at the moment of initial salvation is worthless, yet this judgement is not a single moment in time. but is the beginning of the understanding of righteousness. the judgement is not overagainst what unrighteous they had committed, but rather what righteousness they are to learn and understand in the lake of fire.

 

ME2 -

In that model - each person is their own savior - capable of saving THEMSELVES from sin - paying their OWN debt AND having something left -to go to heaven.

In that case righteousness DOES come through the law - because all that the law demans (in this case the second death) is paid AND the person REMAINS fully entact - and available for life eternal.

Your view of death-that-is-not-death, and death-that-does-not-destroy - leads you to the conclusion that once that non-death process is over - once the non-destroying is done - the person REMAINS and is available for heaven having fully met all the demands of the law in their OWN person - They are their OWN savior!

Amazing!

In Christ,

Bob

 

BTW - do they "still WANT" to go to heaven to live forever with the own that has been "tormenting them day and night with fire and brimstone"???

Does all that "tormenting" make them love God "all the more" - when in this life they did not?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob,

there is one only model that works towards obtaining a state of righteousness. and that is being resurrected from spiritual death attached to the spirit of Christ.

no one is their own saviour.
no one can duplicate the works of God towards his son, Jesus Christ.

just as no one can choose to be placed in the christ spirit.

the second death is the removal of all unrighteousness from the human being. it is the extermination of the power of death towards the individual. it is the total covering of righteousness over unrighteouesness in a human beings life...it is the death of death.

whether the loss of the power of death is towards an individual or the final extermination of the power of death in the entire human race. death will no longer have any effects in Gods creation.

today we see the church being resurrected from spiritual death and later the physical death of the body occuring. towards those in the 2nd resurrection will observe physical death and later experience spiritual death in the next age.

no matter how one looks at this process.
all mankind will enter into spiritual death as a consequence at failing at Gods law.
Yet all will be resurrected from spiritual death by the sacrifice of God the fathers lamb and the resurrection Power of the father towards us as individuals.

this thread isnt about spiritual death. its about hell and the place prepared for the devil and his demons. this is the abode of the reprobate. those who serve God by following the law. unfortunately they never admit that they cannot successfully follow the law. they are the lawless. they are unholy until God calls for their souls to enter into spiritual death and meet their Lord.

 

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

adam is a prototype of this image. he is not the "final" design God intends. he is not in righteousness for he couldnt sin.
the image of man was always to be that of being in the resurrected spirit of Christ.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

1Co 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.

1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

adam , the prototype is earthy; next to become a combination of earthy and heavenly. to further become heavenly after the purging of the works of the earthy.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
</font>[/QUOTE]Me2, you quote a lot of verses but none of them back up what you claim. Quoting a string of verses is not helping your case. In fact, what you quote only helps disprove universalism as what is being written is to Christians at the churches.

The "last Adam" is Christ.

Yes, believers in Christ will bear the image of the heavenly and put on the incorruptible because they have believed in Christ. This was written to Christians at the church in Corinth. This was not written to all men.

You have taken all the verses that are spoken ONLY about those who have trusted in Christ and applied them to everyone. This is not what the text says.

 

I must admit, I thought in 20 years of ministry I had met every kind and flavor of Baptist. Me2 you are a new one on me, you really are the first universalist baptist I have heard of. Is what you have stated in your post what is taught in your Baptist church?

Bro Tony

 

Bro tony,

I preferr to call myself a baptist who believes in the "universal reconciliation" of all men.

universal reconciliation

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

2Co 5:18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

so far, God is still hiding the message of reconciliation from the masses of this age.

Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

maybe true reconciliation doesnt begin until the next age when the incumberances of the sinful flesh isnt effecting man any longer?

Me2

 

Thanks for sharing your view, I understand what you are saying. I just don't agree, at all. The Scriptures in 2Corinthians have to do with those who are saved. And the Ephesian verse must be kept in context, I would suggest reading the next verse to see what and to whom Paul is writing.

I too believe that the day will come when "every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord" but unfortunately they will do this in their condemned state. Your view destroys any need for anybody to acknowledge Christ as Savior. Again, thanks for sharing.

Bro Tony

 

Sinners are not damned at their death and placed in Hell only at that time. The Bible teaches that sinners are damned while they walk on this earth. [John 3:18 b,c] When they receive Jesus [John 1:12] they are given everlasting life to all who truly believe in Jesus Christ. [John 5:24]

Anyone who neglects or rejects Christ is lost now, while on this earth, plus also at the Great White Throne Judgment referred to in Revelation 20:11-15]

 

It is not a wonder that God saves many, but that God saves any. We are not deserving of anything but God's wrath, and we become the adoptive beneficiaries of His mercy and grace. Hell has always been our destiny, but by grace are we saved through faith...all free gifts of God.
To God be all the glory.

Cheers,

Jim

 

You have missed the point of the Gospel.

#1. No one in heaven is "wicked" or "unrighteous". If you are there (even if you get there by paying your own debt) you are not "wicked".

#2. The Gospel declares Christ to pay the debt that we could not pay for ourselves - He saves us because we can not pay ourselves.

But then there are those who think they can pay the debt themselves and go to heaven and be "righteous" living forever in heaven among the saints - ETERNAL LIFE for the wicked of earth.

So - I ask again - does all that burning and torment - "make them love their tormentor more"?

Is there any text that says - after you die you can then accept eternal life?

Is there any support for "salvation of those in the lake of fire"?

No? hmm.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The wonder of it all is that Jesus died for every sinner. [I Timothy 2:6 & I John 2:2] Christ has paved the path to Heaven; stepping onto the path requires faith in Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:26 says, 'For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.' There is no sovereign, pick and choose theory here.

It is true that we all were and are worthy of Hell, but His plan was to give every soul the possibility of Heaven, if we get busy witnessing to our faith. [Mark 16:15-16] There is no hint of universal salvation found in verse sixteen.