Hell: Traditional or Conditional?

[Van]

Well, I was mistaken, Yeshua1 seems to believe God is not omnipotent, being able to create beings He cannot put an end to. Is he alone, or are there other holders of a rather low view of God. No attribute of God seems safe from those that redefine words or add to scripture to pour man-made doctrine into the text.

Almost every orthodox believer believes God can put an end to the life of the soul, for God Almighty is all powerful.

 

[Yeshua1]

Well, I was mistaken, Yeshua1 seems to believe God is not omnipotent, being able to create beings He cannot put an end to. Is he alone, or are there other holders of a rather low view of God. No attribute of God seems safe from those that redefine words or add to scripture to pour man-made doctrine into the text.

Almost every orthodox believer believes God can put an end to the life of the soul, for God Almighty is all powerful.

There are things not even God can do though, such as save a sinner who denies Jesus is Lord, or totally destroy a human made in His own image, even as warped as the Fall made him!

 

[percho]

There are things not even God can do though, such as save a sinner who denies Jesus is Lord, or totally destroy a human made in His own image, even as warped as the Fall made him!

Can a sinner believe, agree and then say Jesus is Lord without by election, having been given the Spirit of Truth, that is, the Holy Spirit?

 

[Van]

Is there anyone else who agrees with Yeshua1, and denies God can kill the soul?

As for me and my house, we are to fear the One who can put to an end both the soul and the body in Gehenna.

 

[DHK]

From ISBE:

The same abstract meaning is indicated for Re 20:13. Death and Hades are here represented as delivering up the dead on the eve of the final judgment. If this is more than a poetic duplication of terms, Hades will stand for the personified state of death, Death for the personified cause of this state. The personification appears plainly from Re 20:14: "Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire." In the number of these "dead" delivered up by Hades, believers are included, because, even on the chiliastic interpretation of Re 20:4-6, not all the saints share in the first resurrection, but only those "beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God," i.e. the martyrs. A similar personifying combination of Death and Hades occurs in Re 6:8 ("a pale horse: and he that sat upon him his name was Death; and Hades followed with him"). In Re 1:18, on the other hand, Death and Hades are represented as prisons from which Christ, in virtue of His own resurrection, has the power to deliver, a representation which again implies that in some, not necessarily local, sense believers also are kept in Hades.

The "dead" (thanatos) are represented by all those that were in Hades and possibly more. They will be cast into the Lake of Fire. According to verse 10 they will suffer the same torment as the beast and the false prophet will: "and will be tormented day and night forever and ever."


Your usage of gehenna is likewise used for eternal punishment:

In the New Testament (King James Version margin) Gehenna occurs in Mt 5:22,29-30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33; Mr 9:43,15,47; Lu 12:5; Jas 3:6. In all of these it designates the place of eternal punishment of the wicked, generally in connection with the final judgment. It is associated with fire as the source of torment. Both body and soul are cast into it. This is not to be explained on the principle that the New Testament speaks metaphorically of the state after death in terms of the body; it presupposes the resurrection. In the King James Version and the Revised Version (British and American) Gehenna is rendered by "hell" (see ESCHATOLOGY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT ). That "the valley of Hinnom" became the technical designation for the place of final punishment was due to two causes. In the first place the valley had been the seat of the idolatrous worship of Molech, to whom children were immolated by fire (2Ch 28:3; 33:6). Secondly, on account of these practices the place was defiled by King Josiah (2Ki 23:10), and became in consequence associated in prophecy with the judgment to be visited upon the people (Jer 7:32). The fact, also, that the city's offal was collected there may have helped to render the name synonymous with extreme defilement. Topographically the identification of the valley of Hinnom is still uncertain. It has been in turn identified with the depression on the western and southern side of Jerusalem, with the middle valley, and with the valley to the E. Compare EB ,II , 2071;DCG , I, 636;RE 3,VI .

Again, your use of Gehenna is irrelevant. It is a term of eternal suffering that presupposes the final judgment. The body and soul are both there awaiting that final resurrection to stand before the Great White Throne Judgement.



God does not kill. He is not a murderer as you define him.

 

[go2church]

Just to stoke the coals a bit

The promise of John 3:16 is eternal life (everlasting life) - how is that a special or unique promise if everyone is already has eternal life. Doesn't this verse fit better with the view of annihilation?

 

[Van]

Based on the complete absence of a response, I conclude that everyone except Yeshua1, does indeed believe God is all-powerful and can kill (put an end to) everything He created, including the soul/spirit of people.

Accurate translation is import for understanding what God actually said, rather than how some choose to rewrite His message based on man-made doctrine.

And of course, when you consider John 3:16, and contrast eternal life with non-eternal life, i.e. perishing, the view that God can kill the soul is reinforced.

 

[Van]

The "dead" (thanatos) are represented by all those that were in Hades and possibly more. They will be cast into the Lake of Fire. According to verse 10 they will suffer the same torment as the beast and the false prophet will: "and will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Here we have an example of mischaracterization of a verse.

And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Clearly the "they" refers to three entities, the Devil, the Beast, and the False Prophet. The fate of the lost, those whose names are not found in the Lamb's book of life, is not addressed.

 

[Rippon]

Accurate translation is import[sic] for understanding what God actually said, rather than how some choose to rewrite His message based on man-made doctrine.

Speaking of inaccurate translation, as a wannabe translator, you have rewritten plenty of Scripture based on your manmade doctrines.

And of course, when you consider John 3:16, and contrast eternal life with non-eternal life, i.e. perishing, the view that God can kill the soul is reinforced.

The Second Death is not literal perishing i.e. cessation of existence. God can do anything He wants, but soul-killing is not what He does.

 

[Revmitchell]

Just to stoke the coals a bit

The promise of John 3:16 is eternal life (everlasting life) - how is that a special or unique promise if everyone is already has eternal life. Doesn't this verse fit better with the view of annihilation?

I suppose that would depend on how you define eternal life.

 

[Revmitchell]

God can do it all. That fact does not support the idea that is how he does it.

 

[Yeshua1]

Well, I was mistaken, Yeshua1 seems to believe God is not omnipotent, being able to create beings He cannot put an end to. Is he alone, or are there other holders of a rather low view of God. No attribute of God seems safe from those that redefine words or add to scripture to pour man-made doctrine into the text.

Almost every orthodox believer believes God can put an end to the life of the soul, for God Almighty is all powerful.

Again, God has chosen to restrict himself to doing ONLY what his very nature allows for, do you deny then that God cannot lie, or cannot cause others to sin, or that salvation has been limited to just those who have received jesus as their Lord then?

Being able to do all things means according to his plans and purposes, His vey will, and he has decided to have both lost and saved to spead all eternity alive after physical death!

 

[DHK]

Here we have an example of mischaracterization of a verse.

Mischaracterization?
I certainly trust the reliable ISBE more than I trust your opinion on the same verse. It is hardly a mischaracterization.

Clearly the "they" refers to three entities, the Devil, the Beast, and the False Prophet. The fate of the lost, those whose names are not found in the Lamb's book of life, is not addressed.

There is such a thing as context.
The inference is clear.
Those whose names are not written in the Book of Life (verse 15) will have the same fate as those in verse 10 (whose names are also not written in the Book of Life). Why would one be led to believe otherwise.

 

[Van]

Hi DHK, I know what you claim, but the "they" in Rev. 20:10 refers not to the people, but to the Devil, Beast and False prophet. Thus a mischaracterization. Unless folks are tethered to the truth, discussion is pointless.

Based on your assumptions, the Bible teaches eternal torment. But based on other assumptions, shared by a growing number of bible students, God may put an end to both the body and soul in Gehenna.

 

[Yeshua1]

Hi DHK, I know what you claim, but the "they" in Rev. 20:10 refers not to the people, but to the Devil, Beast and False prophet. Thus a mischaracterization. Unless folks are tethered to the truth, discussion is pointless.

Based on your assumptions, the Bible teaches eternal torment. But based on other assumptions, shared by a growing number of bible students, God may put an end to both the body and soul in Gehenna.

There are NO biblical passages, when interpreted in their proper fashion though, that can be used to support that notion!

Its based upon this growing desire to make "it fair and reasonable"

 

[DHK]

Hi DHK, I know what you claim, but the "they" in Rev. 20:10 refers not to the people, but to the Devil, Beast and False prophet. Thus a mischaracterization. Unless folks are tethered to the truth, discussion is pointless.

Based on your assumptions, the Bible teaches eternal torment. But based on other assumptions, shared by a growing number of bible students, God may put an end to both the body and soul in Gehenna.

First, it is not based on assumptions, but rather context.
Second, the Bible does teach eternal torment, as you ought to well know.
Do you not concern yourself with what orthodox Christianity has had to say throughout every era of Christianity?
What about those to whom we have listened to so long: Spurgeon, Moody, Wesley, et.al. Consider such famous sermons as "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God," by Jonathan Edwards.
This new doctrine put forth is not new in the sense that it has been believed by the SDA, but only new amongst evangelical Christianity. It holds no place in Orthodox Christian belief. It is a novelty, a "so-called Christian" curiosity, the type of speculation that Paul advised us to stay away from.

Rev.20:10,15 is only a supporting scripture that supports the truth of eternal torment taught in many places throughout the rest of the Bible:
"where the fires are not quenched," and
"the worm dies not" (conscience)
"everlasting fire" is mentioned many times
"the smoke of their torment" ...forever.

..."going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." (Jude 1:7)
--There must be a vengeance of eternal fire if one is going to suffer through it for all eternity.

[FONT=&quot]Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.[/FONT]
--This speaks of false teachers--they will suffer the blackness of darkness forever. Eternal flames and blackness of darkness at the same time--but for all eternity is what we focus on.

Peter verifies what Jude has said about false teachers:
[FONT=&quot]2 Peter 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.[/FONT]
--For all eternity. Eternal torment.

This is just a sampling of what is taught in scripture after scripture, book after book throughout the Bible. It cannot be avoided. A century ago "conditional hell" would have never been entertained. It would have been labeled a heresy immediately. Why it is even been entertained as a possible legitimate Biblical belief today is beyond me.

 

[Yeshua1]

First, it is not based on assumptions, but rather context.
Second, the Bible does teach eternal torment, as you ought to well know.
Do you not concern yourself with what orthodox Christianity has had to say throughout every era of Christianity?
What about those to whom we have listened to so long: Spurgeon, Moody, Wesley, et.al. Consider such famous sermons as "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God," by Jonathan Edwards.
This new doctrine put forth is not new in the sense that it has been believed by the SDA, but only new amongst evangelical Christianity. It holds no place in Orthodox Christian belief. It is a novelty, a "so-called Christian" curiosity, the type of speculation that Paul advised us to stay away from.

Rev.20:10,15 is only a supporting scripture that supports the truth of eternal torment taught in many places throughout the rest of the Bible:
"where the fires are not quenched," and
"the worm dies not" (conscience)
"everlasting fire" is mentioned many times
"the smoke of their torment" ...forever.

..."going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." (Jude 1:7)
--There must be a vengeance of eternal fire if one is going to suffer through it for all eternity.

[FONT=&quot]Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.[/FONT]
--This speaks of false teachers--they will suffer the blackness of darkness forever. Eternal flames and blackness of darkness at the same time--but for all eternity is what we focus on.

Peter verifies what Jude has said about false teachers:
[FONT=&quot]2 Peter 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.[/FONT]
--For all eternity. Eternal torment.

This is just a sampling of what is taught in scripture after scripture, book after book throughout the Bible. It cannot be avoided. A century ago "conditional hell" would have never been entertained. It would have been labeled a heresy immediately. Why it is even been entertained as a possible legitimate Biblical belief today is beyond me.

The reason why is that the notion of hell strikes against many as being unfair, as "God is Love", so why would he do that to lost sinners?

Problem with that view is that His ways and thoughts are far above our own, so who are we to tell the Creator what he should deem 'fair and right?"

 

[Van]

There is no need to continue. DHK denies the doctrine of eternal torment is based on assumptions. Nothing more to say.

Based on his assumptions, the Bible teaches eternal torment. But based on other assumptions, shared by a growing number of bible students, God may put an end to both the body and soul in Gehenna.

 

[DHK]

There is no need to continue. DHK denies the doctrine of eternal torment is based on assumptions. Nothing more to say.

Based on his assumptions, the Bible teaches eternal torment. But based on other assumptions, shared by a growing number of bible students, God may put an end to both the body and soul in Gehenna.

You have yet to explain what may be called as historical theology.
This has never been accepted by theologians of the past. Why?
You have yet to explain the scriptures that I have given you in the above post, or at least the poignant parts of those scriptures that point nothing but to an eternal torment. Why? Is it because they cannot be explained apart from eternal torment? You avoided what may be called the nuts and bolt of my post--the parts that you cannot answer.

 

[Rippon]

DHK denies the doctrine of eternal torment is based on assumptions. Nothing more to say.

My assumption is that people who are members of the BB are Christians. My assumption is that they believe in the authority and God-breathed nature of God's Holy Word.

But I do not make assumptions that Christ is God,that He rose from the dead, that the triunity of the Godhead is factual, that Christ is the only means of salvation. And on and on. Those doctrines are certainly not mere assumptions. No martyr of the faith once delivered has died for assumptions.The great body of Christians for 2,000 plus years have believed the Bible teaches that the damned are in eternal torment. The Bible teaches that --every orthodox Christian accepts this.

Creedal statements such as the Westminster Confession of Faith and the London Confession of 1689, among many others do not list "assumptions" --but what, in their estimation, the Bible teaches.

You, with your novel assumptions, are veering off the path of Christian orthodoxy.