Hell

AITB:

I see just the opposite. People are choosing to deceive themselves. People are choosing to be
separated from God for eternity.
If you or I or anyone
else winds up in eternal punishment, it won't be by accident.

JR

 

AITB,

Just testing it

In Him Kim

 

It is puzzling how Rev 21...

lists unbelievers as just one of the groups that are thrown into the lake of fire. That would imply that the other group’s murderers, sexually immoral, etc. are believers. Otherwise, he should have just written, "unbelievers" which automatically include all the other groups. This could mean that a Christian man such as Hitler still has to pay at least some sort of price. Or the Christian that broke into my house may have to pay for that crime. Otherwise, Christians get to skate (once saved always saved) but that may not mean they don't get punished to some degree. Which could blend with part of what you said about varying degrees of punishment.

PS I read your essay on "Hell" at your website and thought it was well written, and explained. However, I disagree with most of it so we should have some interesting discussions on hell.

 

DHK, How could this be?
Let's look at what happens if we assume that to be the case.

If one isn’t atheist, then he is a Theist. There is no real middle ground as agnostic can be included into either group. So we have every man alive either being a believer or an unbeliever (since you are assuming that the word believer is equal to Theist). If all unbelievers get thrown into the Lake of Fire, then that means we have some believers (Theist) who will not. Of those remaining Theists we can assume that the Christian Theist will not be destroyed that leaves just about everyone else in the entire world for thousands of years not being included in this list unless they violated one of the other listed sins. Murderer, liar, etc. So that would mean that there are some other faiths (Theists) that didn’t worship Idols, etc. that could make it into heaven. That would be false statement given the rest of the scriptures on who is allowed in heaven. Therefore, it has to mean that the word unbeliever can’t be translated into atheist but rather anyone who doesn’t believe in Jesus.

If this is the case, then we are back to my question of why bother listing this short list of sins, when using the word “unbeliever”, should not only have been sufficient but preferred because it then closes the door to arguing that only this list of particular sins are the ones that will get a Christian thrown into the LoF.

This would then violate the once saved always saved unless it means the Lake of Fire could be a type of limited punishment. The circle continues to go round, but I know unbelievers can't mean "atheist". It includes atheists but also all other Theists who have denied Christ.

Any rebuttal?

[ May 21, 2002, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

Are you kidding , don't tone anything down. I for one, can't read something if it puts me to sleep. Preach it sister, but be ready to answer some questions.

 

All Gods children will be in Heaven and those not his will be in Hell... Yet I here people say they know who they are and will state those who are going and those who are not... I'm glad its all in Gods hands... Those in Heaven are a multitude no man could number... as the sands of the sea and the stars of the sky... read your Bible... who did he leave out?... There are also those in Hell and he knows who they are!... Brother Glen

 

I think you are still missing my point. Let's take it one step at a time. Please go with me on this.
In this verse REV 21: 8, How are you defining "unbelievers".

1. Anyone that doesn't believe in Christ but believes in some other False God.
2. An atheist.

Those are the only possibilities. Pick the one or ones you think defines the word in this passage.

 

AITB: I am going back through your essay to pick out some stuff I thought we could discuss. I take the position of annihilation in regards to the Lake of Fire. However, before we get that far. I would like to get your feed back on how you think that hell (the first death) is not a "death" or maybe you do, I'm not totally clear.

I believe that when one dies he goes to hell and is dead. I equate hell as most of the OT did in that it was just the ground and fire is a symbol representing the destruction of the body and soul. But the fire has nothing to do with torment or that the soul is everlasting alive. It says dead and I believe it means dead. Other verses say "Perish" and I think that when my apple perishes it is dead and rotted away. Perish doesn't mean "slowly dying while suffering but never dying." I think that would be better defined as "in torment forever" or "everlasting torment and suffering." But the Bible never uses these terms in regard to regular man, just death type words. It is pretty clear in the following verses.

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

In this verse it can be seen that death of the body is equated with death of the soul. We must admit that we are to be destroyed or killed as our bodies are killed in the 1st death (hell) we can extend this to the 2nd death later.

John 3:16 ...believes in him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

Well to believe that perish means everlasting destruction as some have suggested, and Strong suggests, one would still be alive forever which is everlasting life. So the verse would read shall not have everlasting life, but have everlasting life. It doesn't make sense in context of the verse that perish has an everlasting life connotation to it. What is very obvious is the contrast between death and life, each everlasting.

While I will cover all your verses, I thought this would be a good start to get the basics rolling.

[ May 22, 2002, 02:35 AM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

By the way I just figured out why you titled this Hell. Cute That may be true after this thread is over.

 

Unbeliever refers to anyone who does not believe in Christ, whether atheist or from some other religion. "one who does not have faith in Christ; without faith."
DHK

 

I've posted these verses numerous times but never receieved an answer, maybe on this thread, here in this verse God Himself is deaths destruction, Hes also its plagues, any thoughts because in Revelation the lake of fire is deaths destruction and God Himself is shown in scripture to be a consuming fire. Hell is seen in the following verse and that also is seen as going into the lake of fire but its God making it void in that passage.

Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

Death and hell together are here and are taken care of by God Himself

Isaiah 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Isaiah 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

In revelation these are seen going into the lake of fire (called the second death) BUT our God also is a "consuming fire"

Theres also a verse which says blessed are they who DIE IN THE LORD, that's kind of interesting in light of the verses posted... Second death? Die IN THE LORD? Consuming Fire? Gods Word is a Fire? His Breath as Brimstone? All these things are attributes of God Himself. He IS ETERNAL as well, makes you think...

Either its speaking of two separate things here or speaking of ONE and the same but differently but speaking of these things using images that bare the nature of God.

Any thoughts?

In Him Kim

[ May 22, 2002, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: Star ]

 

But, really, why do we need plans that tell us how to jump from this one verse to this other verse to explain salvation by grace? Why doesn't it leap off the pages of the synoptic gospels?

I think that's odd and it's not given honest treatment, by theologians, often enough...imo.

So tell me I ought to have started a new thread with that one. But it really did come out of my studies on 'hell'!

But a consistent directive that does pop out clearly is this one thing. "To Believe (have faith) in the sacrifice of Jesus for our sins." The rest of the stuff is to support this one common theme and is all up for the Theologians to create different religions out of. This is partly why I find it tragic that so many Christians classify who can or isn't "believing" such as homosexuals, unrepentant(sense of something not being a sin) sinners, etc. They start with a list of reasons that one must surely follow in order to believe. But this is another Thread.

[ May 22, 2002, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

Unbeliever refers to anyone who does not believe in Christ, whether atheist or from some other religion. "one who does not have faith in Christ; without faith."
DHK[/QUOTE]

Good, now one last question and I will sum it up. Then you may attack my argument.

Are all the other groups of sinners listed in that verse (i.e., murderers, sexually immoral, etc. considered believers or unbelievers?

 

Hi All,
Star, Ive Been Thinking What You Were Asking About Death And The Lake Of Fire And Ive Got Some Thoughts For You...When We Die Christians Recieve Immortality, Incorruptable Bodies, Spiritual Life.. The Opposites That Ecclesiasties Tells Us Of.. Theres A Time To Be Born And A Time To Die.. Follow That Thought With Theres Is A Time To Plant And A Time To Pluck Up That Which Is Planted..(Harvest Time). Think About The Parable Of The Sower And The seeds.. and Add..
Rev 20:14 And Death and Hell were Cast Into the Lake Of Fire. This Is The Second Death
Lets Say Now That Death and Hell At This Point Are But Memories. Mere Shells Of There Functions. No Longer Needed (Ever) or you Can Say "In Name Only".
Death You Have Just Seen Is A Transitional Point Of Change. Everyone Has Already Been To Death Theoretically with Jesus (Spiritually). Christians Are The Ones That Have Experience It In Reality (Spiritually)..and Been "Born Again" To Life Immortal (Spiritually). Our Bodies Have Been "In Death" Since We Were Born. Our Souls (Memories,Will,Emotions) are In A Transitional State Of Regeneration (ie Carnal Christian/Walking In The Spirit). Baptists Call It Born Again Positionally. Being Regenerated Experimentally. (I Think ?)
Anyhow Death # 1 is Mind/Body/Spirit (Depending on Who You Are)
And Death # 2 is The Death Of Death or Chapter #2 in Gods Plan....Is Called "Life"
Death being Buried Produces Its Opposite...Life
Hell after Being Buried Produces ??? isnt the opposite of what hell represents is heaven? Or Is Hell An Attitudinal State Of Thinking and Feeling...A Negative State of Being
..the Refiners Fire..What John Is Actually Using Is The Molten Sea In Solomons Temple As A Sign To Represent The Lake of Fire/Sea Of Glass/Glass Mingled With Fire Which Represent Gods Kingdom (Throughout Time) Being Judged By God Himself..(Spritually)
The Lake Of Fire...Represented By The Ground Of The Sower (An Analogy?). Everything That Is Negative Goes Into It..To Be Destroyed or To Be Born Again By Its Opposite? Perhaps..

We Want Revelation To Be So External and True..We Look Out Our Windows and Watch Our TV's with The Fullest Intent.. Waiting For The Anti Christ and The False Profit...You Dont Have To Go there...Go Look In The Mirror
Revelation Of Jesus Christ Means.. The Unveiling Of Jesus Christ (Through The Sons Of God)
The Book Is Written To Believers. One Person At A Time. Each Individual That Becomes A Overcomer (Remember That Word) is Destined To Fulfill A Role That God Has Called
"One Like The Son Of God" This is The People God Has Chose To Regenerate and Become
the Visible Body Of Christ...The Book Is The Uncovering of Veils. One At A Time Exposing The Lord Jesus Christ To The Believer. Most OfThe Sign and Symbols Are Opposites. What Do You See. What Is Its Opposite. That Is What The Book Is Really Pointing To!..and Finally Everything Will Be Seen From Jesus Viewpoint. Who Is Jesus?
There Is Another Place In The Bible Where it Desribes What Is Happening..The Epistles Of John..Describing Little Children, Young Men, and Fathers..Each Describing Growth, Change and Enlargement Of Understanding In The Progressive Growth Of The Believer.

But There Is A Special Curse On This Book (Rev) If You Want To Play With It. Could The Curse Be Confusion and Partiality and Not Seeing That Jesus Is The Judge On The Throne.
Jesus Doesnt Judge Like Humans. He Is A Judge Who Administers Mercy and Love And Forgiveness and Second Chances...Keep In Mind He Is The Blueprint Which All Men Will Be Judged.
Does This Make Any Sense It Is A Little Garbled...