Hell

As most of you are aware, it is the general custom of this forum to close topics on page eight. Please feel free to get in your final thoughts soon.

Clint Kritzer
Moderator

 

Hello Clint,
Sorry But I Dont Know Start of 8 or Finish Sir
Thank You

 

"Who Has The Right To Call Any Brother or Sister in Christ A Heretic..!."
Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject;
"A man that is an heretic." The word heretic is now commonly applied to one who holds some fundamental error of doctrine, "a person who holds and teaches opinions repugnant to the established faith, or that which is made the standard of orthodoxy." Webster

1Tim.6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

"God is all in all."
Not my God. That is the pantheistic view of god, not the God of the Bible. A true Christian may say that Christ is my All in all, but it is the Hindu and others that say that god is all in all. He is in everything; that is why the Hindus have so many idols.

Eph. 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
---The believers at Ephesus were saved. Christ had made them alive (quickened). Before they trusted Christ, they walked according to the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience. Is that the same spirit that is in Ken's posts--calling the Devil, God's Word, and so on.
DHK

 

Hello DHK,
I Hear Ya Dude.. It Sounds Freaky But....
You Got Me On The Keeping It To Yourself as far as vain babbling is concerned!..

What Do You Say About The Vain Babbling Comment Ken.

Or Perhaps Prophecying without an Interpreter?
Concerning the parts where you dont understand....Are You Sure They Are Incorrect?
anyway, putting verses together to make it mean all kind of things is ok., But Dont you think trying to hear what God Is Trying To Convey Spiritually Is Better.
Thats one of the things that I Dont See In Kens Posts. Not Spiritually Descerned Interpretations. A Lot Of Words. A Lot Of Significant Underlying Facts. But No New Or Mystical Secrets Of God To Mankind. Take For Instant Parables....No Interpretations ? No Opinions or Personal Interpretations concerning Them?
Am I Wrong Concerning This Ken?

But I Can See Love and Concern for conveying His Christian Beliefs Towards Us. And Dont You Think He Has As Much Right To His Opinion As We Do. So What Did You Think Of The Pharisees And Their thoughts About Jesus Rights To Free Speech? It Was Just His Opinion!

Now Do We Forgive Him Or How Many Times Do We Warn Him Before We Kick Him Out Of Our Club!.......(dont Real Christians forgive him 70 X 7 times a day ?..)

Does The Defense Have Anything To Say Before We Pronounce Judgement?

Ps DHK We Went Through This Already?
1 Cor 15:28 And When All Things Shall Be Subdued unto Him,
Then Shall The Son also himself be Subject unto Him that put all Things under Him,
That God May Be All In All.

[ May 28, 2002, 01:17 AM: Message edited by: Me2 ]

 

Me2, out of curiosity, what would you say to me if I called Ken a snake? Or a dog? Would you say that I was being unkind and unloving?

Me2, do you say that Jesus is God? If you do, as do I, then think on this: Who is the Jesus that Ken is preaching?

If you think carefully on that question, you'll know that the Jesus Ken is preaching is also Satan. If this is true, then the "loving" Jesus we all profess to know is also a liar, for Satan is the father of lies.

One can preach Jesus all he or she wants to; but which Jesus is it? The one of the Bible, or someone else?

And think on this for a moment: Romans 1:18, Ephesians 5:6.

 

Don't mix personal offenses (Matthew 18:21-22) with heretical teachings (Titus 3:9-11, 1 John 4:1).

 

Okay, I want everyone here to understand that understand your concern, I was there. But after giving him a "hearing" and seeing what he was not saying and what he was saying it had me very curious. I sat there like the rest of you trying to show Ken his error, but the amazing thing was God was showing me something about himself and the diversity of His body which helped me to be more accepting of others and he did this through meeting Ken.

Take for instance the other thread (Judas) I think excellent points were raised which were beneficial to me personally, Ken does have an obvious love for scripture, com on, lets be real... Verse by verse, line by line he's not quoting a comic book. This has to be taken into consideration. He's also not promoting a particular breed in christianity and is very accepting and tolerant if not very kind to all who have treated him with contempt. He has come to conclusions we differ on right? But I think he's stared in the face some of the questions we have all had if we were honest with ourselves. He believes in Jesus Christ as Lord and speaks about the Cross of Jesus Christ and I believe thats what its all about.

Now, when it comes to the Serpent, we've all wondered, and its written in scripture concerning these things, we believe God said it, we believe it, end of story right? But considering these things (or reasoning within himself) and wondering in ones heart about it is seeking to understand, I cannot condemn Ken for that, I simply cannot.

If christians are seeing Ken saying God is Satan attaching what they contribute to him the offense is almost heretical, I understand what your feeling. But there are places in scripture (in every place) that he brings up to the surface to consider in a differently, not in the way everyone percieves him as saying these things. He attributes no wrong to God and no unholiness, no sin except that which Christ bore for all of us on the cross. He draws some excellent points from scripture concerning the Serpent and brings to the surface something I have never considered concerning those that were sealed from seeing this. This is where I think he has a leg to stand on, you can't condemn what you don't understand. Every man deserves a hearing especially those who confess his name.

Kens been refuted and those things that were refuted were brought back up to the table again by him and no one said anything, if he's wrong clearly show it not by dumping off the verses and throwing your hands up in the air when its brought back to the table again. In all honesty when thats done it appears to me that he is indeed onto something, I percieve others may think that way as well. Its beneficial to all to see the debate concerning these things to the end. If Ken is wrong, you've won your brother, and left no question in the hearers and have strengthened yourself concerning the things you have believed.

I'm personally impressed by his apparent love of scripture and his consistent nature concerning that which he believes. I'm impressed by his character, his kindness when reviled. Its 100% grace (not works) To him its about the "Cross of Christ" and the love of God. Against these things I can't find fault.

In regards to the Serpent, listen to what he is saying and how he is saying it, its not as you would think he was meaning it.

Heres only a few of my questions in regards to the paradoxes in considering what Ken has to say which I think are understandable as they relate to the Serpent or attributes of God as I have previously posted but were left unanswered every time.

The Authority of God is Jesus Christ, why when the rod is cast down it becomes a Serpent?
Why when Christ refers to the Serpent being lifted up its in reference to Him, why not a lamb?

Why is not the word "us" used in the creation story until the sixth day and its right after the making of the beasts of the feild (of which the Serpent is) and after the luring of the woman to the tree "us" is mentioned again? Who was cursed? and who became a accursed for us? Who was cast down?

Why is Lucifer the day star? Why is that same star seen as Peters day star rising in our hearts? Why is Christ the Morning star?

Why is Lucifer seen as one who covers and yet that very attribute is given to Christ?

Why was lucifer considered PERFECT (sounds familiar) UNTIL SIN was found in Him? Christ was perfect and our sin was found in Him, in fact he BECAME SIN that we might become the righteousness of God.

Stones in scripture speak of people (out of these stones God can raise up children to abraham) Lucifer walked among the fiery stones, who walked where and with whom?

Why is Satan rebuked through Peter for being mindful or savouring the things of man? I thought God was mindful of man?

"What is man that thou art mindful of Him or the Son of man"... well you get my point.

How come its the Lord that "hisses"? Why does the Holy Spirit have cloven tongues? I thought a cloven tongue belonged to the Serpent? I always thought so, but scripture shows otherwise and I cannot ignore scripture.

Why is Isreal hid from seeing Christ, but in the book of revelation shes hid from seeing who? The Serpents face.

Why are we to "agree" with our adversary? Not speak a word against Him? I thought we weren't to speak a word against the holy Spirit?

Your adversary the Devil "roars" seeking whom he might devour? He's likened to a "lion"? God also is seen roaring like a lion (Tribe of Judah?)

Paul hands one over to Satan so he can be saved? Paul was given a thorn in the flesh a messenger of Satan to buffet him to keep him from getting conceited concerning the all surpassing greatness of the revelations he was receiving?

Levithan is MEAT for the people? I thought Christ was our "meat" besides that the dust is the Serpents meat right? The dust is the flesh right? Why then is the Serpent that is cast down seen consuming all the other "serpents" into Himself? Devouring?

If Levithan breaths fire what is the definition of what God considers fire in His word?

The Serpent decieved, but God also decieves (I don't have the verses present, I'll post them later) In fact the deceived and the deceiver are His. If the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil was the law (which I believe it is) The Serpent tempted the woman to THAT (which brings a curse- under the law under a curse) which tree do you think Christ was crucified to? Why is the priest in numbers seen as admistering the waters that bring a curse? Why is Moses our accuser and he was the mediater of the law and yet the Serpent is the mediater in Genesis? These are but a FEW things which make me in all honesty look at whats presented. Christ is the Rock of offense and God does use the things which are abased and despised.

There are tons more, like God not tempting anyone of evil, well He tempted Abraham, and I don't believe he tempted him of evil any more then the Serpent tempted the woman of evil, because if the tree is "The Law" it is thus good holy and true, and God has bound all men over to disobedience for the sole purpose of having mercy on them. I see God testing "faith" and that is seen throughout scripture by using "The Law" to do that, because we stand by faith, the shrinking back can be seen as "turning back" to that which was weak, namely the law.

So instead of getting twisted in knots concerning what looks like something offensive at first why not hang around and refute what looks like heresy at first and help someone see the truth of these things if they are truly heretical.

I personallywill leave the temptation of Christ in the wilderness and Job to Ken, because I'm still looking into these things and testing them out, but one can easily see how honest questions can arise in considering these things. So without casting stones lets just try to see the best in a person and give benefit of doubt that Ken has with integrity approached these things desiring to understand and if he is wrong and you think his soul is at stake help him. We are judged by our own words agreed? The confession was made of his eternal fate was in the balance, now is the time to show your "love" and turn him back right? Just using your argument before the Lord

In Him Kim

 

Hello Don,
I Can only respond the way That Ive been commanded to. Love. Its Kens Responsibility To Control What He Says (writes). His Prospective of the things he speaks on depends on his reference. I Said It Is Relative. Relative to Who God Is: In Genesis. He Says Its Very Good!. Death and Sin And Evil Were In His Mind Not Yet appearing. Every Idea That Is. Good ,Bad or Ugly is of God. Its Relative to your understanding. In The End God Says Hes All In All. The Final View Of His Creation..Less The Negativity. Yet The Negativity Was of God. But God Says He Is Love. Gods Viewpoint Is Relative To What He Wants You To Understand! Jesus Is The Final Blueprint Of Gods Final Version of Creation That He Wants You To Understand.
Which Is Love. Less The Negativity.
What About That Negativity? Thats What This Is All About. God Created Satan To Be The Contrast Of Good. And Uses The Effects Of Evil To Forge Sons and Daughters To Experience And Finally Choose Good.
Humans have Given This Process A Name. Its Called Being In Hell
Hell Is A Condition Of The Human while They Are Alive. Its Not A PLace. Ive Used Scriptures To Define That Hell Is A Condition. An Imaginary Place
2 Sam 22:6-7
psa 86:13-14
psa 116:3-4
pro 23:13-14
jon 2:1-2

Mankind Has Messed Itself Up So Bad. Introducing The Idea That God Doesnt Care about His Own Creation. So A Few People Want To Propogate The Idea That Hell Is A Place Where Bad People Go After Death. God Dont Have Enemies. He Died To Prove That Fact. He Loves ALL of His Creation. Everybody.

To Some It Is Obvious. Evil Responses and opinions. Lack Of Love,Forgiveness and Mercy Is The Enemy. Thats Real People In A Real State Of Hell. Of Their Own Making. Seperated From God. So They Think...
Wailing and Gnashing of teeth. Outer Darkness. Flames of Torment. You Can Imagine The Torture That An Individual Places Upon Themselves Just To Prove That They (Self-Carnal) Are Right And God Is Wrong...Its A Process. Read The Epistles Of John..Babies,Children,Young Men,Fathers.. Growth Is Evident. Negativity, Resistance Is Necessary For Contrast
Being Tried.. God Permits it By Satan..He Demands it..You Will Conform..So You Think You've Got A Lot Of Free Will..I Say You Will See A Lot Of Hell. And You Say Whos There.
All Gods Disobedient Children. Dont Worry Though. He Will Produce A Back Door For You To Exit With If Necessary. All To Produce A Viewpoint To Love Their Brothers and Sisters...In Christ..
Whos Got The Keys To Heaven and Hell? Dont You Have Them? How About Asking For Them..Repent, Love God, Love Yor Neighbor Like Yourself... hmm,..Curse God and Die..ooh
Leaning On Gods Understanding Is A Whole Lot Better Than Thinking A List Of Rules Will Save Your Bacon...God Is Love.. The Bible Contains Many Many Lists Of Rules That Self Can Create Without God Or Gods Love...ie Jesus.."But I Followed All The Rules", But Without Love..?
What Does Jesus Say, "I Never Knew You"..Thats Hell

The bible is a book To Believers For Believers, It Teaches Gods Childrens What Happens When Carnal Self Wars Against The Spirit Of God (their Father). When Carnal Self Is Controlling. The Believer Is In This State Of Hell. The AntiChrist Are Us!. When Gods Spirit Is Controlling, Were Said To Be Surrounded By Gods Love, or When Heaven Came Down To Earth. Jesus Living Through Us...Overcomers
All The Rest About Afterlife This and That. About 666 or Harlots On Beasts Are Figurative. Imagination. Allegorical Or In Our Case Hell Isnt Real..After Death... God Tells Us Continually . Dont Think About It. Well Carnal Self Has To Know! Has To Be Like God So It Can Be Ready To Make Those Important Decisions About Tomorrow.

James 4:13 Come Now, those Saying, Today Or Tomorrow we will Go into such a City and Spend a Year There, and we will Trade and will make Profit,
James 4:14 Who do Not Know of the Morrow. For What is Your Life? For It Is A Vapor, Which Appears for a Little Time, and Then Disappears.

Hope That Answered Some Questions AITB
See Yall On Another Thread
Me2

 

AITB,

Losing site of the "goal of our faith" is very easy to do, I agree with you on that Each person quareling over their "peice" of the truth can be divisive, thank God Christ IS The Truth, that we could make no mistake about that. Thats simplicity without question. I really admire the openess of both you and Me2 and the non condemning attributes of Christ within you both, not at all implying you both agree with whats presented but you both exemplify the nature of the Spirit in your posts, in other words you practice what you preach and your light is not hidden from my notice. Its these qualities of Spirit manifesting themselves in the both of you differently but in accordance to His nature.

I appreciate that you are both approachable and I've taken note that I can learn a great deal from the both of you, I'm glad you joined the board. Even AITB who I have come across before under the urging of others at one time who saw we might have something in common. I found that amusing but so true

In Him Kim

 

That wasn't the question, now was it?

And I haven't presumed any such thing, now have I?

Yep, sure do.

Now, a question or two for y'all: Is God (Jesus) a god of wrath and vengeance?

Should we tell people that they're sinners? Does that fall in line with "love thy neighbor"?

Going with the predominant theme here that hell is not an actual place, what do we tell an adulterer? That God loves them, and they can continue in their adultery because there's a place for them in Heaven?

 

So, Jesus (God) is a liar. He spoke more on Hell than He did on heaven. He spoke of it in a literal way. He spoke of it in a way that would cause men to think of it. He told stories and warnings about Hell. He applied the truth to Hell--a place of everlasting punishment, of outer darkness, of weeping and gnashing of teeth, of eternal consciousness, of separation from God eternally. And yet you say that He "tells us continually, don't think about it." Either you or Jesus are lying.
DHK

 

Amen, DHK, Amen! Color me disgusted with these blasphemies!

BTW, there IS a difference between God testing Abraham and Satan tempting Jesus. Ya'll need to compare Scripture with Scripture instead of taking some theme and running with it to invent a doctrine and pick/choose verses to back up your ideas, i.e., Ken's numerology theories!

Maybe you should start your own board.

Glad this is the end of these 8 pages! PTL! I fail to see how this discussion is edifying, but it IS provoking, at any rate, and not in a good way.

 

I have always noticed that those who are the angriest cast judgement without refute, its an on going patern with Kens posts, this I find a bit interesting. No one adresses anything, this is even more interesting

In Him Kim

 

You didn't have to read it...</font>[/QUOTE]I didn't...after the first couple of blasphemies, I skimmed this page.

 

There are some things that don't need to be addressed:
"Satan is a name for the Word of God."
"The beasts of Revelation 13 refer to Jesus."

We could add some more. Concerning what the Word of God has to say on these statements, it has already been well said in a well known document:
"These truths are self-evident." I don't see the need of addressing every detail of his posts when such great heresies as these are held to. "Vain babblings avoid."
DHK