Hell

[psalms109:31]

Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 7), that is--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ez.16:53‑55);

Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer. 30:12), that is‑‑until‑‑the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jer. 30:17);

The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9) that is‑‑until‑‑ Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez. 16:53);

Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27) that is‑until‑‑the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer. 49:6);

An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever", that is‑‑until‑‑the tenth generation (Deut. 23:3):

Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting", that is‑‑until‑‑they "were shattered" Hab. 3:6);

The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be ”perpetual" that is‑‑until‑‑Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Lev. 6:12‑13, Heb. 8:6‑13);

God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever," that is--until-‑the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17);

Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer. 25:27)‑‑until‑‑the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jer. 49:39).

"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4, 42)‑‑until‑‑the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47);

Israel's judgment lasts "forever"‑‑until‑‑the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13‑15).

It is appointed once to die and then face judgement.

Those who have not turned to Him will face ever lasting destruction no matter how bad you dislike it, only God can save them and they must repent to live and be saved from the everlasting destruction.

I feel sorry for those who will face judgement and have not repented to live and those who have given them a false hope.

 

[HisWitness]

It is appointed once to die and then face judgement.

Those who have not turned to Him will face eternal destruction no matter how bad you dislike it, only God can save them and they must repent to live and be saved from the everlasting destruction.

I feel sorry for those who will face judgement and have not repented to live and those who have given them a false hope.

i just gave you scriptures with ever and forever in them to get the real meaning and its plain before you- im just looking on how the word of God uses those words not going by how man say they ought to be

 

[Thomas Helwys]

i just gave you scriptures with ever and forever in them to get the real meaning and its plain before you- im just looking on how the word of God uses those words not going by how man say they ought to be

Your thread here is very interesting. Here is a part of an article on hell describing the Jewish views of it. Since the Christian view is very different from these stated Jewish views, one feels compelled to ask, where did the Christian view of hell come from?

"Early Judaism had no concept of Hell, though the concept of an afterlife was introduced during the Hellenic period, apparently from neighboring Hellenistic religions. It occurs for example in Book of Daniel. Daniel 12:2 proclaims "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt." Judaism does not have a specific doctrine about the afterlife, but it does have a mystical/Orthodox tradition of describing Gehenna. Gehenna is not Hell, but originally a grave and in later times a sort of Purgatory where one is judged based on one's life's deeds, or rather, where one becomes fully aware of one's own shortcomings and negative actions during one's life. The Kabbalah explains it as a "waiting room" (commonly translated as an "entry way") for all souls (not just the wicked). The overwhelming majority of rabbinic thought maintains that people are not in Gehenna forever; the longest that one can be there is said to be 12 months, however there has been the occasional noted exception. Some consider it a spiritual forge where the soul is purified for its eventual ascent to Olam Habah (heb. עולם הבא; lit. "The world to come", often viewed as analogous to Heaven). This is also mentioned in the Kabbalah, where the soul is described as breaking, like the flame of a candle lighting another: the part of the soul that ascends being pure and the "unfinished" piece being reborn.

According to Jewish teachings, hell is not entirely physical; rather, it can be compared to a very intense feeling of shame. People are ashamed of their misdeeds and this constitutes suffering which makes up for the bad deeds. When one has so deviated from the will of God, one is said to be in gehinom. This is not meant to refer to some point in the future, but to the very present moment. The gates of teshuva (return) are said to be always open, and so one can align his will with that of God at any moment. Being out of alignment with God's will is itself a punishment according to the Torah."

 

[psalms109:31]

i just gave you scriptures with ever and forever in them to get the real meaning and its plain before you- im just looking on how the word of God uses those words not going by how man say they ought to be

The scripture with everlasting destruction does not have any changes to be made and when we face judgement if we have not repented that will be it everlasting destruction.

Good luck, I am not a universalist and don't want to be.

The scripture is plain Aion also means eternal.

 

[HisWitness]

Your thread here is very interesting. Here is a part of an article on hell describing the Jewish views of it. Since the Christian view is very different from these stated Jewish views, one feels compelled to ask, where did the Christian view of hell come from?

"Early Judaism had no concept of Hell, though the concept of an afterlife was introduced during the Hellenic period, apparently from neighboring Hellenistic religions. It occurs for example in Book of Daniel. Daniel 12:2 proclaims "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt." Judaism does not have a specific doctrine about the afterlife, but it does have a mystical/Orthodox tradition of describing Gehenna. Gehenna is not Hell, but originally a grave and in later times a sort of Purgatory where one is judged based on one's life's deeds, or rather, where one becomes fully aware of one's own shortcomings and negative actions during one's life. The Kabbalah explains it as a "waiting room" (commonly translated as an "entry way") for all souls (not just the wicked). The overwhelming majority of rabbinic thought maintains that people are not in Gehenna forever; the longest that one can be there is said to be 12 months, however there has been the occasional noted exception. Some consider it a spiritual forge where the soul is purified for its eventual ascent to Olam Habah (heb. עולם הבא; lit. "The world to come", often viewed as analogous to Heaven). This is also mentioned in the Kabbalah, where the soul is described as breaking, like the flame of a candle lighting another: the part of the soul that ascends being pure and the "unfinished" piece being reborn.

According to Jewish teachings, hell is not entirely physical; rather, it can be compared to a very intense feeling of shame. People are ashamed of their misdeeds and this constitutes suffering which makes up for the bad deeds. When one has so deviated from the will of God, one is said to be in gehinom. This is not meant to refer to some point in the future, but to the very present moment. The gates of teshuva (return) are said to be always open, and so one can align his will with that of God at any moment. Being out of alignment with God's will is itself a punishment according to the Torah."

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Gehenna was an earthly place outside of jerusalem that animals and Humans were cast into--the fires burned in that valley even in the day of Christ--romans took 600k jews and cast them into that fire in the area of AD 70-----Fires went out after AD 70 and are not burning any longer they were only Aion Fire not eternal

 

[HisWitness]

The scripture with everlasting destruction does not have any changes to be made and when we face judgement if we have not repented that will be it everlasting destruction.

Good luck, I am not a universalist and don't want to be.

The scripture is plain Aion also means eternal.

sorry friend i disagree and i also believe HOPE for my loved ones through the Lord Jesus Christ in what he accomplished on the Cross His death was not in vain he WILL gather ALL unto himself

 

[HisWitness]

Your thread here is very interesting. Here is a part of an article on hell describing the Jewish views of it. Since the Christian view is very different from these stated Jewish views, one feels compelled to ask, where did the Christian view of hell come from?

"Early Judaism had no concept of Hell, though the concept of an afterlife was introduced during the Hellenic period, apparently from neighboring Hellenistic religions. It occurs for example in Book of Daniel. Daniel 12:2 proclaims "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt." Judaism does not have a specific doctrine about the afterlife, but it does have a mystical/Orthodox tradition of describing Gehenna. Gehenna is not Hell, but originally a grave and in later times a sort of Purgatory where one is judged based on one's life's deeds, or rather, where one becomes fully aware of one's own shortcomings and negative actions during one's life. The Kabbalah explains it as a "waiting room" (commonly translated as an "entry way") for all souls (not just the wicked). The overwhelming majority of rabbinic thought maintains that people are not in Gehenna forever; the longest that one can be there is said to be 12 months, however there has been the occasional noted exception. Some consider it a spiritual forge where the soul is purified for its eventual ascent to Olam Habah (heb. עולם הבא; lit. "The world to come", often viewed as analogous to Heaven). This is also mentioned in the Kabbalah, where the soul is described as breaking, like the flame of a candle lighting another: the part of the soul that ascends being pure and the "unfinished" piece being reborn.

According to Jewish teachings, hell is not entirely physical; rather, it can be compared to a very intense feeling of shame. People are ashamed of their misdeeds and this constitutes suffering which makes up for the bad deeds. When one has so deviated from the will of God, one is said to be in gehinom. This is not meant to refer to some point in the future, but to the very present moment. The gates of teshuva (return) are said to be always open, and so one can align his will with that of God at any moment. Being out of alignment with God's will is itself a punishment according to the Torah."

concept of so called eternal fire hell was not even in the old testament and God rebuked them that took their children and offered them unto Molech and burnt their children alive--God said that thought NEVER entered into his mind to do such a horrible thing

 

[Thomas Helwys]

concept of so called eternal fire hell was not even in the old testament and God rebuked them that took their children and offered them unto Molech and burnt their children alive--God said that thought NEVER entered into his mind to do such a horrible thing

I just want to give you a heads-up on something: a friendly warning, if you will, but first let me say that I consider myself a conservative Baptist who has an interest in Biblical doctrines set in their original context; I am also a historian.

As such, I think your views on hell are interesting and contain a lot of truth. The article I posted is one such attestation to that. However, now for the warning: Be aware that this is a fundamental Baptist forum, and those in charge will not look kindly on your beliefs on hell. If you persist, don't be surprised if your stay here is short. I would hope not, but I am a realist, and you should be, too. This is a debate forum, but be aware of what kind of debate forum.

I am conservative, but I expect some of my views will not be welcome on a fundamental Baptist forum. There is a difference between conservative and fundamentalist; I know that from personal experience because I have been in both a conservative SBC church and also a fundamental Independent Baptist church. I will state my views when called for, but I will move on and not push them, nor will I break forum rules. If others do, that's on them.

I say this to you because I'd like you to be able to stay here as long as possible. I am not afraid of differences; it is often through differences with others that we learn the most, about them and also about ourselves. And I am always the optimist that friendships might be forged in these circumstances despite the differences. That is what I would hope for.

Anyway, from one newbie to another: welcome, and let's hope we can both be here for a while.

 

[12strings]

I just want to give you a heads-up on something: a friendly warning, if you will, but first let me say that I consider myself a conservative Baptist who has an interest in Biblical doctrines set in their original context; I am also a historian.

As such, I think your views on hell are interesting and contain a lot of truth. The article I posted is one such attestation to that. However, now for the warning: Be aware that this is a fundamental Baptist forum, and those in charge will not look kindly on your beliefs on hell. If you persist, don't be surprised if your stay here is short. I would hope not, but I am a realist, and you should be, too. This is a debate forum, but be aware of what kind of debate forum.

I am conservative, but I expect some of my views will not be welcome on a fundamental Baptist forum. There is a difference between conservative and fundamentalist; I know that from personal experience because I have been in both a conservative SBC church and also a fundamental Independent Baptist church. I will state my views when called for, but I will move on and not push them, nor will I break forum rules. If others do, that's on them.

I say this to you because I'd like you to be able to stay here as long as possible. I am not afraid of differences; it is often through differences with others that we learn the most, about them and also about ourselves. And I am always the optimist that friendships might be forged in these circumstances despite the differences. That is what I would hope for.

Anyway, from one newbie to another: welcome, and let's hope we can both be here for a while.

It should be pointed out that, while there is truth that each person must read and interpret scripture for themselves...we also stand on 2000 years of Christian history that has generally agreed on the eternal punishment of those who do not believe. If you look at the beliefs of....
-The early church fathers (Ignatius, Clement, Justyn Martyr, Ireneas)
-Augustine
-The Roman Catholic church (since its inception)
-The Orthadox church
-The Reformers
-The anabaptists
-Every major protestant group since the reformation (until very recently).

...ALL of these have held to some place, with some kind of eternal punishment for the unbelievers.

If one believes they have truly discovered something that all these people throughout church history have missed, on any issue...they they should state that at the beginning of their arguments. So...

RIGHT WAY TO DO IT: "I understand that what I am saying is contrary to what the church has generally believed for 2000 years, but I believe it is consistent with scripture."

 

[psalms109:31]

sorry friend i disagree and i also believe HOPE for my loved ones through the Lord Jesus Christ in what he accomplished on the Cross His death was not in vain he WILL gather ALL unto himself

Aion

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 165
Original Word Word Origin
aion from the same as (104)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Aion 1:197,31
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ahee-ohn' Noun Masculine
Definition
for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
the worlds, universe
period of time, age

You just can't pick a translation you like the best so you can water down the message you can handle. If you do not repent before you face judgment you will perish everlasting where the fire is never quenched and the worm dies not.

 

[Bronconagurski]

I just want to give you a heads-up on something: a friendly warning, if you will, but first let me say that I consider myself a conservative Baptist who has an interest in Biblical doctrines set in their original context; I am also a historian.

As such, I think your views on hell are interesting and contain a lot of truth. The article I posted is one such attestation to that. However, now for the warning: Be aware that this is a fundamental Baptist forum, and those in charge will not look kindly on your beliefs on hell. If you persist, don't be surprised if your stay here is short. I would hope not, but I am a realist, and you should be, too. This is a debate forum, but be aware of what kind of debate forum.

I am conservative, but I expect some of my views will not be welcome on a fundamental Baptist forum. There is a difference between conservative and fundamentalist; I know that from personal experience because I have been in both a conservative SBC church and also a fundamental Independent Baptist church. I will state my views when called for, but I will move on and not push them, nor will I break forum rules. If others do, that's on them.

I say this to you because I'd like you to be able to stay here as long as possible. I am not afraid of differences; it is often through differences with others that we learn the most, about them and also about ourselves. And I am always the optimist that friendships might be forged in these circumstances despite the differences. That is what I would hope for.

Anyway, from one newbie to another: welcome, and let's hope we can both be here for a while.

Your treatment of hiswitness has been very pragmatic. I am afraid I could never have hiswitness as my close personal friend as long as he persists in propagating his errors. He was schooled earlier on a the greek word aion that always means eternal when used in the judgement context, provided no proof whatsover for his definition, yet continued to insist he was right. Then psalms came along and schooled him again, yet he persisted. He also persists in giving his universalist view on salvation, which is grave error imo that could lead people to believe a lie and be damned forever. Now if he had a respected Greek dictionary that backed him up on his definition, then I would not have said anything, but he did not. That is dishonest imo and I can not let it pass without rebuke. I could learn something from your responses, however, as sometimes you can say the same things in a better way. But I will confront errors like his because there are souls at stake imo.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Holding to the heresy of "no literal eternal hell" is against the doctrinal statement agreed to by Baptists for posting on the BB. :BangHead: It is part of the doctrinal statement we sign.

Have never met a Baptist who believes such error. No Baptist confession of faith in all history has held this. Have met many people who CLAIM to be Baptist but are not, since they reject truth of the Word.

Watching this thread.

 

[HisWitness]

Holding to the heresy of "no literal eternal hell" is against the doctrinal statement agreed to by Baptists for posting on the BB. :BangHead: It is part of the doctrinal statement we sign.

Have never met a Baptist who believes such error. No Baptist confession of faith in all history has held this. Have met many people who CLAIM to be Baptist but are not, since they reject truth of the Word.

Watching this thread.

i did not say anywhere that is what i hold to be true--i have been discussing the topic and word meanings

 

[DHK]

Your thread here is very interesting. Here is a part of an article on hell describing the Jewish views of it. Since the Christian view is very different from these stated Jewish views, one feels compelled to ask, where did the Christian view of hell come from?

Your Profile says that you belong to the Thomas Helwys Baptist Church, which is almost like a denomination in itself. If so, do you believe like the rest of the churches do.
Here is a statement of faith, or at least a revealing website that points out what the Thomas Helwys Baptist Churches believe:

http://godsbreath.net/2012/09/13/church-of-christ-history/

First I note that the founder is not a Baptist at all. He belonged to the Church(es) of Christ.
He believes that baptism is essential for salvation.
He wrote a book, The Mystery of Iniquity, which was supposed to be a challenge to Baptists.
Helwys never accepted the name Baptist or identified with any party affiliation.
He believed that works were necessary to salvation.
He believed that one could lose their salvation--that a man could fall away from the grace of God.
He stood against "worship invented by men," which included musical instruments, and likened them to the image of the beast.

His doctrines are the same as the Churches of Christ today.
In light of the above, are you a Baptist?

 

[Bronconagurski]

What do you believe about hell? Is it eternal? Do the lost go there? These are simple questions, so don't evade them. Tell us once and for all if there is a literal, eternal hell that will be the eternal abode of the lost that die in their sin.

 

[DHK]

i have stated to you what i believe on the word Hell in OP.

As far as a rendering of the word of Hell that states that there is a place mankind is cast into where God is not there--and its in the afterlife-and that they shall fry and sizzle for all eternity--i dont think you can find that rendering at all in the scritures

Hope this is enough info for you to start making comments

This is on the first page, one of your opening comments. It is a statement of what you believe. Please don't lie to Dr. Bob, or any other person on this board.

 

[HisWitness]

They are not the same Lazarus. Do you know anything about the bible? The Lazarus that Jesus raised from the dead was Mary and Martha's brother and they lived in Bethany. He is not the same Lazarus as the beggar in the true story of the Lazarus and the rich man. Sheesh. Just like John the Baptist and John the Apostle were different people. Two different people with the same name. Get a grip and admit you are wrong on all counts and don't have a clue how to rightly divide the bible. That could be because you are not saved, I don't know, but you certainly don't know the bible.

you guys here are good at putting words in proples mouth--i NEVER said they were the same Lazarus lol

 

[DHK]

also if that place was real dont you think the REAL Lazarus after resurrection would have been telling people about that place and what went on there and warning others of the other place the rich man was in--theres no scripture or historical evidence that he did any of those things.

There is no evidence that the "real Lazarus" went down to Sheol.
Therefore we assume you confused the two Lazarus's.

 

[HisWitness]

This is on the first page, one of your opening comments. It is a statement of what you believe. Please don't lie to Dr. Bob, or any other person on this board.

i was relating to my studies so far on the word hell--that as of yet i didnt find that rendering--maybe ill find it in the futre--if it is the real rendering of it

 

[HisWitness]

There is no evidence that the "real Lazarus" went down to Sheol.
Therefore we assume you confused the two Lazarus's.

Did not lazarus die ?