help for a confused Calvinist

How could you possible know that?

All of us were doomed until we came to faith in Christ! Whosoever comes to faith in Christ will be saved!

What is the problem! Those who reject Christ dont deserve what they've chosen?

 

webdog,

God has revealed that He will save a multitude which no man can number, from every tongue and tribe and people and nation. Why do you assume that "there is a chance (a good chance at that)" that your son wouldn't be included?

 

Whatever,

There is no such thing as chance with a sovereign God who decides. The only folks who truly leave salvation to chance are the Arminians.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Well I know that. I've even read Sproul's book. I was quoting our Arminian friend webdog.

 

Chance and luck are an un-godly invention . . .

God sovereignly chooses whom He chooses according to His plan. How He accomplishes that has been argued for about 500 years - give or take a year or two.

 

Thou sowest not that body that shall be but by chance, wheat or some other grain.

 

I've just discovered a theologian that I like, that seems to make it pretty clear. Find a 3-volume theology by W. G. T. Shedd. You can get it electronically, along with many others, for pretty cheap here:
http://www.ageslibrary.com/ages_systematic_theologies_2.html

Also, try just reading scripture and taking it at what it says. The whole debate here tries to unpack God's side of the miracle of salvation. Leave what God does to Him, and just concern yourself with what the bible says for us.

 

That sounds good, but part of what the Bible says for us is what God has done for us and why He did it. It is good to wrestle with all that God has revealed, whether we can ever grasp it all or not.

 

How could I know that? Universalism is false doctrine, and unless you believe in that, your doctrine makes those that are in hell created for just that purpose.

 

I'm not an arminian. Get that straight.

 

Broad is the path to destruction and narrow is the way to life. I take that to mean there will be more people in hell than heaven. If God arbitrarily selects, there is a chance my son was not selected.

 

christianyouth, much of what you've read in the previous pages are precisely why i would stear clear of systematic ideas and man-made theological systems (although i will probably be responded with "it isn't man-made, God said it in the Bible). yeah, yeah, i'm talking about specific terms and formulas that people are discussing. did you notice that you actually began talking about whether people are the chosen or not? this is not what theology is about. in our pursuit to know God (ie. theology) many have often believed that they have come to a conclusion. it is wrong when you don't agree with their conclusion, and heretical when you actually have a different conclusion. i'm not talking about things such as God coming in the flesh versus Jesus not being virgin born, or divine in nature. we can discuss some of these things and disagree....things like: who did jesus die for? all, as in everyone...or all, as in only the chosen? or double-predestination? i know i'm going to get ripped for quoting a guy like this, because it in no way reflects any agreement with most of his views. but just think about this quote, i think it helps with what i'm saying. brian mclaren said (i know, i know, leave me alone about quoting him. i just think the quote is good...i'm not advocating him) "Whether it's God who makes us puppets, or whether it's genes....it doesn't matter much to me. I have little time for determinism." my point in quoting him is this...we concentrate too much are arguing for a side and excuse it by saying we are attempting to grow closer to God by studying scripture. most of the time it is not attempting to learn more of God's word. it's arguing, and it's foolish. i'm sure most of you get my point, and many will rebuke me for suggesting what i have. but the original post was from a guy who needed some help, and probably more encouragement than anything. the way it is most often discussed is that he now must choose a side. many of my views are very reformed....but i will not label myself a calvinist. i didn't even know the guy? why would i cling to his name, and line up behind him as if he created salvation? anyways....bring on the rebukes. i expect it. but be nice about it, especially about the mclaren quote. haha.

 

More evidence that you do not understand Calvinism. Election is not arbitrary.

Believe what you will, but get this straight - Calvinists believe that God is far more merciful than to leave our eternal destiny up to us. "A great multitude that no one could number" - think about that for a while.

 

Whether you like it or not, if it's not conditioned on anything...it is.

I notice you live in Chattanooga. If this is in Tenn., go to a Vol's game and tell me the exact number of people in attendance without counting tickets...or even a local high school football game and give me the number. A great number no one can number can be anywhere from 100 to infinity.

 

I used to be strongly anti-Calvinist. Now, I accept both Calvinism and free will. That's because BOTH theologies are supported by scripture. But you say they are mutually exclusive. With man's perspective that is true. But to really understand which one is operative means to understand God's ways. I believe we can't do that. So I that we should act as if it is our responsibility to accept the gospel and obey Christ's command to "pick up our cross and follow Him." Might this all have been predestined before the beginnings of time? Perhaps.

 

Arbitrary means "determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle". Calvinism does not teach that God chooses by chance, whim or impulse; rather, He chooses "according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will". The "unconditional" means that there is no condition in any person whereby God chose that person, not foreseen faith nor anything else.

I thought you knew this?

I would not stoop so low as to attend a UT game, but 104,818 were at the Marshall game. I was not there but some man could (and did) number the crowd. When I was young I went to church where the attendance ran around 100 and I assure you, even a child could number a crowd like that.

 

The above definition of "arbitrary,", similar to the Wikipedia definition, is somewhat arbitrary. The actual meaning of the term is closer to God deciding according to his own will rather than in response to a fixed rule outside of himself. As such, the term could well be used to describe unconditional election.

On the other hand, it connotes capriciousness and, therefore, is not the best word to use, despite its etymological accuracy.

 

The term means that there is no requirement necessary for salvation, as Pipedude stated, it's only according to His own will rather than a requirement. This is not what Scripture teaches.

I hardly believe a man came to the number 104,818 by just scanning the crowd. Come on. And in regards to being able to number 100 people, you can try to GUESS how many people there are, but you can not honestly tell me you can give me the exact number.

 

First, you need to reread Pipedude's post. Second, election and salvation are two different things. Of course there are requirements necessary for salvation. Calvinists do not teach otherwise.

First, what you or I can believe is a poor standard for what is true. Second, I used to count the crowd six to eight times every sermon. I assure you that I could have given you the exact number.

 

Seem like we all are getting smaller crowds but I have yet to start counting them but who knows