i have instructed my Sons if i ever look in that direction, to shoot me before i drift away.
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Help me understand calvinism.
- Thread starter Gorship
- Start date
At least you admit that you would be doing the drifting.
It's begun.
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Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Perhaps you misunderstood. I now AFFIRM all five points. They are 100% Biblical.
LOL! I don't use those modern philosophical terms, I prefer 330 year old archaic philosophical terms with vaguely applicable scripture verses. And I will enlarge the size, change the color of the font of these words because they are so, so important.
Nice.
The time you spend laughing out loud might be better used to read that old 300 year old archaic document and you might learn a few things. What you describe as vague scripture references ,are probably the scriptures you least understand which would give you the puzzle pieces of the truth that you seem to lack.
That which is highlighted in red are indeed very important.
This truth That God is seeking everyone of His elect sheep.not one will be lost. He is not willing that any of them perish...is something many here seem to dislike,but as you are busy laughing out loud you would not know.
The 1689 off has been around a long time because it is solid.
I do not think the pope was the anti christ, but the teaching is solid.
You have not scripturally demonstrated any other part of it to be in error.
I am certain you cannot or you would have.
So before you ridicule those men who wrote it, maybe show why it is out of date.
Watch and learn.
Let's take a look, shall we?
You quoted the 1689 Confession basically saying the number of men and angels that were predestinated and elect was fixed in number, a number that was "so definite it cannot be increased or diminished". The scripture given in support of a fixed number of elect was:
2 Tim 2:19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”
and
John 13:18 “I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill this passage of Scripture: ‘He who shared my bread has turned against me.
Do you see anything in those scriptures that says the number of elect are fixed in number? NO!
Here it is:
No...God is saving all he ever intended to save, not one more, not one less.
While true, it is a man-made theological term. Why do you make it a habit to bold, enlarge font, change color of stuff that is man-made, while scripture is left as an afterthought. Like this:
I bow to your superior intellect and knowledge of the 1689 Baptist Confession.
See my example, above. The 1689 Confession often supplies scripture, but upon actually checking it out, it fails to support the claims being made.
I'm not ridiculing the men who wrote it, I'm ridiculing you for saying you don't use modern theological terms and then you spout archaic theological terms. It's ironic.
The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith. Excludes women in most places.
Let's take a look, shall we?
You quoted the 1689 Confession basically saying the number of men and angels that were predestinated and elect was fixed in number, a number that was "so definite it cannot be increased or diminished". The scripture given in support of a fixed number of elect was:
2 Tim 2:19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”
and
John 13:18 “I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill this passage of Scripture: ‘He who shared my bread has turned against me.
Do you see anything in those scriptures that says the number of elect are fixed in number? NO!
Here it is:
No...God is saving all he ever intended to save, not one more, not one less.
While true, it is a man-made theological term. Why do you make it a habit to bold, enlarge font, change color of stuff that is man-made, while scripture is left as an afterthought. Like this:
Iconoclast said:
I bow to your superior intellect and knowledge of the 1689 Baptist Confession.
See my example, above. The 1689 Confession often supplies scripture, but upon actually checking it out, it fails to support the claims being made.
I'm not ridiculing the men who wrote it, I'm ridiculing you for saying you don't use modern theological terms and then you spout archaic theological terms. It's ironic.
The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith. Excludes women in most places.
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Ok ITL.
Thanks for taking time to interact and share your concerns.
Notice I did not say" modern theological terms." ..I said carnal philosophical terms which are used to avoid scriptural truth, big difference .
Now the two verses.2tim2:19
Paul comments in verse 10 how he endures all things for the elects sake, that they may also obtain the salvation which is IN CHRIST JESUS...
There are elect persons who have not been quickened yet....
Paul cautions them to be steadfast,even overcoming false teachers as in verse17.,18
Then he writes verse 19,Nevertheless. .
The Lord knoweth them that are His...
They will not get lost in the crowd, He knows them intimately. ..these false teachers will be told, I never at anytime knew you...life and death difference.
Jn 13:18
There is never a time Jesus does not know the elect, He knows each and everyone of us.
Do you think as God He only knew the Apostles, ? There many examples like this, it is not random.
I use different colors and enlarged fonts to draw attention to what I am highlighting.
The 1689 is not mine and I am still studying what is contained in it. As with any study tool, it needs to be examined in light of scripture.
It is only meant to be a guide and starting point.
I just bought the revised commentary on it, by Sam Waldron
ITL.
Use it as a starting point. If you feel you can improve on it by all means do so.
The verses in 2 Timothy are warning about false teachers and then Paul says, "nevertheless, the Lord knows who are His", specifically referring to the difference between false teachers and true believers. He's saying to Timothy that God will sort out the false teachers. He's not saying there is a finite number of the elect.
The verse in John is specifically addressed to the disciples. The context is that one of them is going to betray Jesus, and that Christ knows who it is. He's making a prophecy and he wants the disciples to hear it so they will remember and believe him later. In these verses "I know who I have chosen" does not refer to all of the elect, but ONLY the disciples.
Nowhere do these verses state that the elect are a finite number of people (men and angels is what the 1689 Confession said)
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"InTheLight
8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
he was speaking of persons who were ELECT but not yet saved....
Why does He mention the "elect" here ? Why was that on His mind?
These disciples were chosen, , they are part of the Elect ....just because they were living at that time does not make them non elect.
The Lord knows them that are His....is certain that it speaks of the elect.Just like many other verses teach.... Now you did well in considering these two verses, but now here are the others offered before and after this section to complete the picture....
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )
3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )
4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )
5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )
As I said except you left this part out;
8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
he was speaking of persons who were ELECT but not yet saved....
Why does He mention the "elect" here ? Why was that on His mind?
These disciples were chosen, , they are part of the Elect ....just because they were living at that time does not make them non elect.
The Lord knows them that are His....is certain that it speaks of the elect.Just like many other verses teach.... Now you did well in considering these two verses, but now here are the others offered before and after this section to complete the picture....
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )
3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )
4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )
5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )
Sure. Look at the context. Paul is talking about suffering for the Lord's sake. He's telling Timothy he might have to suffer as well. He says he suffers for the Lord and for the elect.
Also, you see a limit on the number of the elect? You see a definite quantity given there?
He mentions it as one of the reasons he endures suffering for the Lord's sake. To see the elect receive salvation. Nothing about a numerical limit. Sheesh.
I never said any such thing. Jesus is addressing the 12 apostles, SPECIFICALLY, about who is going to betray him. The person that dips the bread in gravy with Jesus will be the betrayer. There is not a hint about any other elect being referred to. In fact the word elect is not used at all. The word used is chosen. You gonna tell me you've redefined the word "chosen" to mean "elect"? I'm no Greek expert but I'd guess the word chosen means picked for a title or a task (like being chosen to be an apostle), whereas the word elect means selected for salvation. Judas was chosen but not elect. Get it?
.
<Sigh> I'm not even arguing that. I'm arguing that nowhere does the Bible specifically says there is a fixed, definite number of elect angels and men. This is what your 1689 Confession asserts and then it lists two irrelevant verses trying to support it. I just blew that argument to smithereens.
.
<snip lengthy quotation of London Confession which doesn't support a definite number of elected men and angels, except point 4, which I just demolished.>