The word is "threskeia", which in the KJV (and most translations) is translated as "religion". It referrs to one's mode of worship, such as observance. It does NOT refer to a denominational institution. Note that the verse goes on to define what "pure religion". And it DOES NOT define is as an institution.
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Help me with your definition of "cult"
- Thread starter PeruSeminary Pastor Enoc
- Start date
Daniel David
New Member
Christ did establish the Christian church. The church is to do certain things. People are to do certain things within the house of God. Do you disagree with this?
Yes and no. Christ established a relationship with God, and the people who are in that relationship are called the ekklesia (church), or body of believers. The house of God is "wherever two or more are gathered". He did not intend to establish an organization that builds buildings, etc (though that is not in and of itself bad).
Oh dear, what do I tell my my poor hellbound Presbyterian cousin? Sorry, I don't buy that, not to mention, it borders on unchristian selfrighteousness.Johnv,
If it appearts to be unchristian selfrighteousness then you miss seeing the church.
If God only forgave sin thru the priesthood of Isreal as a covenant church people,(and they were not afraid to proclaim this),then why do you say my statement borders on unchristian self-righteousness if I say that a covenant baptist people have the same authority.
Your statement of when 2 or more are gathered together has to do with "witnesses" which is given
to a church people. Also the Lord's supper and baptism are given to the same covenant baptist church people. Neither do I believe in the universal invisible church you seem to advocate.
An individual cannot be a church nor can an individual baptise or take the Lord's supper by their own authority. This authority is given to a local body of believers as is the authority to bind and loose. As the scriptures state, He who
hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit sayeth unto THE CHURCHES.
Greg
If it appearts to be unchristian selfrighteousness then you miss seeing the church.
If God only forgave sin thru the priesthood of Isreal as a covenant church people,(and they were not afraid to proclaim this),then why do you say my statement borders on unchristian self-righteousness if I say that a covenant baptist people have the same authority.
Your statement of when 2 or more are gathered together has to do with "witnesses" which is given
to a church people. Also the Lord's supper and baptism are given to the same covenant baptist church people. Neither do I believe in the universal invisible church you seem to advocate.
An individual cannot be a church nor can an individual baptise or take the Lord's supper by their own authority. This authority is given to a local body of believers as is the authority to bind and loose. As the scriptures state, He who
hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit sayeth unto THE CHURCHES.
Greg
Johnv,
I do believe that, and only those that are scripturally organized are true baptist churches. Even some of those have gone so far into heresy as to no longer being baptist churches. You say you are a baptist. How much of your baptist church history do you know or do you discount those historical records?
Greg
I do believe that, and only those that are scripturally organized are true baptist churches. Even some of those have gone so far into heresy as to no longer being baptist churches. You say you are a baptist. How much of your baptist church history do you know or do you discount those historical records?
Greg
I'm SBC. I'm aware of SBC history, warts and all. My church was organized as a new church about 20 years ago. Any other details about my personal life are no one's business. What's your point?
Your comments give me pause, and worry me somewhat. I am no more or less a member of "the true church" than my cousin who is a Presbyterian, or my other cousin who is RCA, or my girlfriend who is Calvarean. Neither are you. Baptist-onlyism is as heretical as KJV-onlyism.
Your comments give me pause, and worry me somewhat. I am no more or less a member of "the true church" than my cousin who is a Presbyterian, or my other cousin who is RCA, or my girlfriend who is Calvarean. Neither are you. Baptist-onlyism is as heretical as KJV-onlyism.
Johnv,
Thank you, John. Was your church organized by another baptist church? If not,then you are really
not a church at all. Baptist history and the basis
of a scriptural church tells us who we are. If you are going to be a baptist, be a baptist and
not a baptist-methodist, baptist-presbyterian and
so forth. For by thy words thou shalt be justified and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Thank you, John. Was your church organized by another baptist church? If not,then you are really
not a church at all. Baptist history and the basis
of a scriptural church tells us who we are. If you are going to be a baptist, be a baptist and
not a baptist-methodist, baptist-presbyterian and
so forth. For by thy words thou shalt be justified and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
faith4life
New Member
I would also like to know if UPC is a cult. I've read articles and I have been to numerous websites in which they claim that Oneness churches or Jesus only churches are indeed cults. How can they say this with such certainty?
This greatly concerns me since I know of at least three people at school that attend a Oneness church. One of them is a very close friend of mine and I wouldn't want him involved in a cult.
I'm a Christian before I'm a Baptist. You seem to be putting way too much emphasis on the "baptist" label.
I don't know the details of my church's foundings, as that was before my time. However, if the church was started by another church, or by an SBC pastor who came out to start a new SBC church, I disagree with your assessment of what constitutes a "true" church. My cousin's church is a Reformed Church, being founded directly by the RCA, which began in the US in the 1620's, which was a mission church of the Reformed CHurch of the Netherlands, which founded by John Calvin (and we all know about him). Since that lineage is very specific, does that mean his church is more or less of a church than mine? No absolutely not.
I hate to say it, but it sounds to me like your beliefs on what constitutes a "true" church are almost cult-like in themselves, imo.
Johnv,
I do not believe that an individual has the authority to start a church, nor observe any of the other ordinances that I mentioned on their own apart from church authority. Individuality destroys the body of Christ,which is his church for which he came to die. Regarding my reference to church history, the SBC is just a drop in the bucket concerning baptist church history. Go back and see what doctrines were so precious that our baptist brethren be slain by the millions during the dark ages and see who slew them for what they believed. Baptist church history has been written by our enemies. If doctrine is of no importance to you, then I see why you so readily throw the blood of Christ outside the body. It appears that you know very little about church authority.
I do not believe that an individual has the authority to start a church, nor observe any of the other ordinances that I mentioned on their own apart from church authority. Individuality destroys the body of Christ,which is his church for which he came to die. Regarding my reference to church history, the SBC is just a drop in the bucket concerning baptist church history. Go back and see what doctrines were so precious that our baptist brethren be slain by the millions during the dark ages and see who slew them for what they believed. Baptist church history has been written by our enemies. If doctrine is of no importance to you, then I see why you so readily throw the blood of Christ outside the body. It appears that you know very little about church authority.
Corretion- baptist brethren were slain.
By the way, Calvin persecuted the baptists and
anything he saw about predestination came from
the baptists anyway. While believing the doctrines
of predestination (only applied to the church), I
definitely do not call myself a calvinist.
By the way, Calvin persecuted the baptists and
anything he saw about predestination came from
the baptists anyway. While believing the doctrines
of predestination (only applied to the church), I
definitely do not call myself a calvinist.
On the contrary. As for as doctrine, I'm bound as a Baptist to adhere to the Baptist distinctives. All of my biblical docrtinal beliefs MUST adhere to those. Further, the Baptist Distinctives are intended for Bapists only. I laugh whenever someone chastises, say, the Presbyterians, because they don't adhere to a Baptist distinctive.
If there exists an interpretational issue not covered under the Distinctives, it generally falls under the distinctive of church autonomy to make such biblical interpretations as they see fit. For example, one Baptist church may require women to wear pants or head coverings. It is a violation of the distinctives to require the same of congregations who are not their own. Likewise, with your interpretation regarding the topic, ans since you're a Baptist who is bound by the distinctives as much as I, it's a violation for you to insist that I have the same interpretation as you do.
If you cannot adhere to the Baptist Distinctives, I invite you to leave the Baptist church you currently are a member of.
Johnv,
I most definitely adhere to the doctrinal beliefs of my baptist church. Why should I leave mine when you are the one who wants to give the life of Christ outside of a baptist church. Oh, I see, you say we all believe in Christ. It doesn't matter if we baptist or sprinkle, think wafers and wine become the body and blood of Christ, speak in tongues by who knows what source. These things don't matter, do they John? You better believe they do because they are your testimony of who you say the Trinity is and their purposes.The question that Christ asked Peter, Who say ye I am? is of uttermost importance. I say that the blood of Christ is not to be applied outside of his body and you are willing to throw it out to anyone just because they make the statement, I got saved last night. One of us is teaching lies and I sure don't want to hold to your doctrines. The same principle applies to a baptist teaching you must be immersed versus a catholic or presbyterian teaching that sprinkling is just fine. One is teaching lies and I think that I will believe what the baptists teach. Your statement that you invite me to leave my church shows you lack of knowledge concerning church authority. If you think that an individual can simply walk out of a scriptural baptist church and not expect God to deal with him you are sadly mistaken. That individual may think can do it but it is the church that has the authority to put him out if they have the guts to do it. I understand that there are baptists who do not even do that now. This is the binding and loosing power, the power to cut off the hand if it offends, and it is not given to an individual.
So you can see why I still doubt your understanding of church authority but maybe your church really doesn't follow what Christ taught his baptist people concerning this issue. Do you and your church believe in such authority?
I most definitely adhere to the doctrinal beliefs of my baptist church. Why should I leave mine when you are the one who wants to give the life of Christ outside of a baptist church. Oh, I see, you say we all believe in Christ. It doesn't matter if we baptist or sprinkle, think wafers and wine become the body and blood of Christ, speak in tongues by who knows what source. These things don't matter, do they John? You better believe they do because they are your testimony of who you say the Trinity is and their purposes.The question that Christ asked Peter, Who say ye I am? is of uttermost importance. I say that the blood of Christ is not to be applied outside of his body and you are willing to throw it out to anyone just because they make the statement, I got saved last night. One of us is teaching lies and I sure don't want to hold to your doctrines. The same principle applies to a baptist teaching you must be immersed versus a catholic or presbyterian teaching that sprinkling is just fine. One is teaching lies and I think that I will believe what the baptists teach. Your statement that you invite me to leave my church shows you lack of knowledge concerning church authority. If you think that an individual can simply walk out of a scriptural baptist church and not expect God to deal with him you are sadly mistaken. That individual may think can do it but it is the church that has the authority to put him out if they have the guts to do it. I understand that there are baptists who do not even do that now. This is the binding and loosing power, the power to cut off the hand if it offends, and it is not given to an individual.
So you can see why I still doubt your understanding of church authority but maybe your church really doesn't follow what Christ taught his baptist people concerning this issue. Do you and your church believe in such authority?
TWade,
We believe that God only works or deals with a people in covenant standing or marriage position. God is not an adulterer. In order to be put in covenant standing that person must submit to a baptist church people with whom resides the authority of God and be baptised by the authority of the church.
Greg
We believe that God only works or deals with a people in covenant standing or marriage position. God is not an adulterer. In order to be put in covenant standing that person must submit to a baptist church people with whom resides the authority of God and be baptised by the authority of the church.
Greg
I would also like to know if UPC is a cult. I've read articles and I have been to numerous websites in which they claim that Oneness churches or Jesus only churches are indeed cults. How can they say this with such certainty?
This greatly concerns me since I know of at least three people at school that attend a Oneness church. One of them is a very close friend of mine and I wouldn't want him involved in a cult. </font>[/QUOTE]I do not believe that UPC is a cult. I would rather Spend time studying real cults. They do not deny the deity of Jesus.
Nobody calls Jesus Lord except by the Holy Spirit . They may see things different than some groups but the same thing can be said of Methodist vs Baptist. To disagree with certain issues does not necessarily mean that a group is a cult.
UPC is a real cult. They require a person to speak in tongues in order for them to be saved. That is works salvation, taking away from the sufficieny of the blood of Christ and his atonement for our sins. Was not the sacrifice of Christ good enough to pay for our sins that we have to help Christ along by speaking in tongues also. That is heresy. UPC is a cult that needs to be exposed just as Jesus Only and Oneness. The Oneness Pentecostal also deny the trinity.
No man can say that Christ is Lord but by the Holy Spirit. You have a misunderstanding of this verse. Many people call Jesus Christ Lord. My relatives call Jesus Christ Lord, and they are not saved. Roman Catholics address Jesus Christ Lord, and most if not all of them are not saved. You can ask any unsaved person to repeat the phrase after you: Jesus Christ is Lord, and he will be able to do it. It is not difficult. That statement, the way you understand it, even contradicts Scripture.
Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
This is the Great White Throne Judgement, where no believers are present. The unbelievers will come and present themselves before Christ and many will say: "Lord, Lord..."
But Jesus will say: "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
So what does that verse mean then. 1Cor.12,13,and 14 are all chapters that discuss the gifts of the Holy Spirit. He is addressing the Corinthians who had just come out of a pagan background of speaking in ecstatic tongues. Oftentimes they did not know what they were saying when they spoke like that, much like modern tongues speakers do. Many spoke under the influence of a demon. When a person speaks in Biblical tongues (languages), then he speaks by the power of the Holy Spirit, and he praises God. But if you don't know what you are saying, and are speakings ecstatically, sometimes by the power of demons they were actually praising Satan rather than God. That is the point that Paul was saying. By what spirit were they speaking in tongues? A demonic spirit is not going to say that Christ is Lord.
DHK