• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Help Needed

Jailminister

New Member
Oh by the way, Scott.

President John Quincy Adams directly addresses the Ten Commandments -- "The law given from Sinai was a civil and municipal code as well as a moral and religious code. These are laws essential to the existence of men in society and most of which have been enacted by every Nation which ever professed any code of laws. Vain indeed would be the search among the writings of secular history to find so broad, so complete and so solid a basis of morality as the Ten Commandments lay down."

I'm sure scott will say Adams never said this.
 

Gina B

Active Member
It's about making a big fat monument of it and showing it off to everyone. It's about circumventing procedure to put the monument up in the middle of the night. To them, this fight is about the Ten Commandments, not about Christianity - Judge Moore is more concerned with a big block of stone than he is at being Christ-like. I can totally understand their point of view.
How is that any different than making millions of copies of the bible it's contained in and passing it out, or sticking a big tall steeple on your church or putting a big fat cross on your property or blanketing a town with tracts or telling complete strangers they're going to hell if they don't believe like you do?
All of those are much more aggressive, in your face, look at me type things than a stone tablet that's been sitting calmly in the same place for years.
Since when is not wanting God's words banned from public places unchristian behavior? If it was banned from private homes would you obey the law there too?
By the way, there is nothing that directly says "don't take the ten commandments down". There is an expectation that you use your God given brain and not have to have a written list of everything on earth that is a good or bad idea. "Should we agree with making the scripture less and less visible and known" shouldn't require too much brain power to figure out.
This isn't just about the ten commandments in a public place. What you're seeing is the result of Christians finally getting fed up with having their beliefs shoved into a corner and hidden away from everyone. Ban prayer, ban religious talk, make things condemned in the bible legal, ban the bible as reading material in schools, ban clothes with religious words or religious trinkets from public places, take down the ten commandments...it's starting to boil over now. Some people are starting to realize that while each little thing in itself hardly makes a dent, all of this together is making a huge gaping hole!
Does that make any sense to you? At the least do you better understand why this means so much to other people even if you disagree?
Gina


Gina
 

ScottEmerson

Active Member
Originally posted by Jailminister:
Scott, How long have you worked for the committee on re-writing American History. I give you proof and you throw your revisionary opinion in there. WAKE UP!!!!!!
No, I gave you facts, showing you whose side is really into the revisionism. If you can disprove my side, then please do so. If not, then you lose the argument.
 

ScottEmerson

Active Member
Originally posted by Jailminister:
Oh by the way, Scott.

President John Quincy Adams directly addresses the Ten Commandments -- "The law given from Sinai was a civil and municipal code as well as a moral and religious code. These are laws essential to the existence of men in society and most of which have been enacted by every Nation which ever professed any code of laws. Vain indeed would be the search among the writings of secular history to find so broad, so complete and so solid a basis of morality as the Ten Commandments lay down."

I'm sure scott will say Adams never said this.
Now, see, that he said. We have primary records of him writing this.

Now, let's see the primary records of Madison, shall we... Oh, wait - there aren't any. There is no proof at all that he said what you say he said.
 

Brett

New Member
How can you possibly accuse Scott of revisionist history when he actually provided a source for his evidence, whereas you did not.

Anyway, Jailminister, why don't you fight your battles against abortion, which is a far, far, far greater evil than whether or not the 10C can be displayed. I mean, who cares? Regardless of your apocalyptic predictions, the U.S. won't fall apart if poor judge Moore can't keep his monument. :rolleyes:
 

Jailminister

New Member
Brett said
Anyway, Jailminister, why don't you fight your battles against abortion, which is a far, far, far greater evil than whether or not the 10C can be displayed. I mean, who cares? Regardless of your apocalyptic predictions, the U.S. won't fall apart if poor judge Moore can't keep his monument.
1) I stand in front of abortion clinics every week and protest those murder mills. I will not vote for anyone who is pro-abortion.

2)I care and so do thousands of others. We are willing to die for it. I doubt you would lay your life down for abortion.

3) So you say.
Amo 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

Amo 8:12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find [it].
 

Baptist Believer

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Originally posted by Gina L:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />There is a strong sense among the non-Christian community that Judge Moore is placing the Ten Commandments as equal to a deity. They think that the whole thing is pretty funny. It is hard to defend Christianity with people like Judge Moore around who blatantly disregard the law, especially without a clear Biblical reason to do so.
Please provide proof that non-Christians see us as equating the ten commandments themselves as a deity. </font>[/QUOTE]Proof? Proof can only be accepted if the person asking for proof is willing to receive it.

But here’s very compelling evidence from the mouth of Judge Moore himself.

From the lead story on the CNN website:
Moore's stand has drawn comparisons to former Alabama Gov. George Wallace, a blustery segregationist who engaged in similar face-offs with federal courts. But in a CNN interview Wednesday night, Moore rejected that comparison.

"Wallace stood in the doorway to keep people out. We're trying to keep God in," he said. “Wallace stood for division. We're standing for unity. This is more like what Martin Luther King did in standing for rights for the people of Alabama and the people across this nation."
http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/08/21/ten.commandments/index.html

It seems that Moore equates the presence of the monument to Ten Commandments in the capitol to the presence of God Himself. (Kind of like an Ark of the Covenant, which had the Ten Commandments inside it.)

Any way you look at it, only an idolatrous theology would conceive that human laws, human will, or the presence/absence of objects contain God.
 

Gina B

Active Member
Oh come on, you're smarter than that! Do you also think people believe a prayer is God when they say "We've taken God out of public schools"?
Read the statment again.
"Wallace stood in the doorway to keep people out. We're trying to keep God in," he said.
Now tell me, do you really and truly believe he meant that the monument was God and he was trying to contain God inside of the courthouse?
What do you mean "if I was willing to accept it"?I asked for evidence that people believe that and would accept it as true if it were. I'd have too. It wouldn't mean much except people aren't as intelligent as I like to give them credit for, but I'd still have to accept that.
Gina
 

Baptist Believer

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Originally posted by Gina L:
Oh come on, you're smarter than that! Do you also think people believe a prayer is God when they say "We've taken God out of public schools"?
I think they believe that God will not be with them and the schools unless they have the state mandate an official time for prayer in the schools. That’s what people like David Barton (probably one of the most influential “get God/prayer back in school” apologists today). He has an entire book devoted to the subject (“America: To Pray or Not To Pray”) that essentially says just that. It also has a lot of cobbled together (and wildly inaccurate) charts and graphs that allegedly “prove” that God has left the nation’s public schools since the state-sponsored school prayer decisions of 1962/1963.

Judge Moore seems to be saying the same thing.

NOTE: My use of the word "contain" in my first post does not have the meaning that God is within the monument like a chicken breast in Tupperware. The word contain is intended to convey the meaning of "restricting" God from His activity.

Read the statment again.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"Wallace stood in the doorway to keep people out. We're trying to keep God in," he said.
Now tell me, do you really and truly believe he meant that the monument was God and he was trying to contain God inside of the courthouse?
</font>[/QUOTE]If you’ll notice, I compared the monument to the Ark of the Covenant, not God Himself. To Moore, it seems He believes God will remain “in” the capitol if the monument stays. Furthermore, the comparison to Wallace's stand at the door to bar black students from entering and the references to "in" and "out" definitely seem to indicate a spatial relationship.

What do you mean "if I was willing to accept it"?I asked for evidence that people believe that and would accept it as true if it were. I'd have too. It wouldn't mean much except people aren't as intelligent as I like to give them credit for, but I'd still have to accept that.
My usual response to demands for “proof” regarding controversial issues is to ask “what kind of proof would you accept”? By establishing a standard before providing evidence, the person demanding proof is required to have some integrity with their handling of the provided evidence. Most people are close-minded and are not honestly asking for evidence that might change their minds. By demanding “proof”, they are simply attempting to shut down the discussion and make the other person jump through hoops only to reject offered evidence as not being “proof”.

They reason I did not respond that way to you Gina is that I know you and know that you are as honest as you can be with facts. :D So I just simply pointed out how difficult it is to “prove” things to someone who might not be willing to consider evidence honestly.
 

Jailminister

New Member
Baptist Believer for once we agree. You can't prove something as truth if the other side does want to face the truth. When the other side accepts humanist teachings over reality.
 

ScottEmerson

Active Member
Originally posted by Jailminister:
Baptist Believer for once we agree. You can't prove something as truth if the other side does want to face the truth. When the other side accepts humanist teachings over reality.
...or when the other side doesn't accept documented evidence and critical thinking...
 

Gina B

Active Member
Awww, please be nice now people! I enjoyed reading your thoughts, wouldn't want the thread to get shut down or become non-productive. :(
Gina
 

rsr

<b> 7,000 posts club</b>
Moderator
Would anyone care to explain why the judge lost his case?

A few points:

1. To blame the "feds" is disingenuous; the suit was filed by private parties; the federal court simply made the ruling.

2. The judge is not the best poster boy for the cause; his candidacy was based on his fame as the "Ten Commandments Judge" and little else, apparently.

3. The court found, rightly or wrongly, that the monument is religious, not secular.

While the secular aspect of the Ten Commandments can be emphasized, this monument, however, leaves no room for ambiguity about its religious appearance. Its sloping top and the religious air of the tablets unequivocally call to mind an open Bible resting on a podium. While the quotations on the monument's sides are non-Biblical, they still speak solely to non-secular matters, that is, to the importance of religion and the sovereignty of God in our society; these non-Biblical quotations are physically below and not on the same plane with the Biblical one. Further, there is the ineffable but still overwhelming sacred aura of the monument.
As the court observed earlier, it was not surprising to learn that visitors and court employees found the monument to be an appropriate, and even compelling, place for prayer. The only way to miss the religious or non-secular appearance of the monument would be to walk through the Alabama State Judicial Building with one's eyes closed.
4. The court examined other judicial and public displays of the Ten Commandments, and found most of them unobjectionable.
Finally, the mural in the Pennsylvania Supreme Court courtroom is one of many similar murals in that room, including murals featuring William Blackstone and the Code of Justinian.
5. Alas, the court finds another agenda.

While not argued by the plaintiffs, the court is concerned that Chief Justice Moore's involvement with Coral Ridge Ministries, a Christian media outlet, violates the third, entanglement prong of the Lemon test. Aside from its being the only media outlet to record the night-time placement of the monument in the Alabama State Judicial Building, Coral Ridge has used the Chief Justice's name and his installation of the Ten Commandments monument to raise funds for not only his defense but also its own evangelical purposes.
6. By it's nature, Moore's decision had the force of law.

The Chief Justice placed the monument in the Judicial Building Rotunda under his authority as administrative head of Alabama's judicial system. ... His placement of the monument therefore has the force of law. The Chief Justice is the only person with the authority to place the monument or remove it, authority given to him by the laws of Alabama. To say that his actions in placing the monument in the Alabama Judicial Building does not constitute a "law" obfuscates the truth of the situation: the monument was placed in the Judicial Building by a state official, acting in his official state capacity, under powers granted to him by state law.
7. An interesting aside from the court, which a Baptist could (and did, in the person of John Leland) consider appropriate:

Indeed, this same history taught that when government interfered with religion, religion (and, in particular, Christianity)suffered. This is evidenced by the many instances in which people have been persecuted for their religious beliefs, well-known to anyone who has studied American History.
Thus, the First Amendment gave "preferred treatment" to religion, and, in particular, to Christianity, by assuring that there would be no governmental interference with, including even "endorsement" of, it. In other words, as
indeed history has shown, Christianity flourishes best when it is left alone by government. So, it could be argued that, because this country began as a Christian nation, the First Amendment's ban on government interference with religion in general has actually encouraged the flourishing of not just religion but Christianity in particular.
As I said, the court may indeed be wrong in its analysis — but it is a far cry from "bashing" Christianity.

8. The court's decision may indeed be flawed; perhaps the Supreme Court will find it so. But this case is not the best one for proponents of posting the Ten Commandments, and the court was careful to explain that not all such exhibits are in violation of the constitution.

But, in announcing this holding today, the court believes it is important to clarify at the outset that the court does not hold that it is improper in all instances to display the Ten Commandments in government buildings; nor does the court hold that the Ten Commandments are not important, if not one of the most important, sources of American law. Rather the court's limited holding, as will be explained below in more detail, is that the Chief Justice's actions and intentions in this case crossed the Establishment Clause line between the permissible and the impermissible.
As I said, the decision may be wrong, but it hardly constitutes "bashing" Christianity.

The decision is available here, for those who would like to read it:

GLASSROTH VS. MOORE
 

Ed Edwards

<img src=/Ed.gif>
Thank you for your ikind words, Sister Sherrie.

Short statement:
Jailminister has the right to try to
recuit (implied by the title "Help Needed").
Jailminister has an obligation
before God to minister in the manner that God
directs.

I have the right to ignore Jailminister's
call for "help". I am obligated
before God to minister in the manner that
God directs me.
I have been required of God to pray foir fellow brothers and sisters who are servants of God.

May all God's good blessings be unto
Brother Jailminister, his family,
and his ministry. Amen!
thumbs.gif


BTW, Baptist Believer, I rather thenk the
pictures come from an earlier anti-gay rally
and not the current Alabama demonstrations.

wave.gif
 

rlvaughn

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
This issue is a very emotional one, and because of that those of us on either side can be guilty of not clearly thinking through the matter. Perhaps we are not the only ones. From the district judge's findings:
...this monument, however, leaves no room for ambiguity about its religious appearance. Its sloping top and the religious air of the tablets unequivocally call to mind an open Bible resting on a podium. While the quotations on the monument's sides are non-Biblical, they still speak solely to non-secular matters, that is, to the importance of religion and the sovereignty of God in our society; these non-Biblical quotations are physically below and not on the same plane with the Biblical one. Further, there is the ineffable but still overwhelming sacred aura of the monument.
Laying aside the overall issue and just focusing on these statements, is it just me, or are these personal feelings concerning the monument's "appearance", "air", and "aura" just a little bit of nonsensical mumbo jumbo as far as legal findings go?
 

rsr

<b> 7,000 posts club</b>
Moderator
Good point. I myself had wondered, while reading the opinion, how one describes an "aura" in legal language. This may be one of the weak points that the Supreme Court could use to reverse, should it so choose.

Having seen video of the monument, though, there may be something to the finding. Let the Supreme Court decide if there are penumbras of religiosity as there are of privacy.

However, to be fair, the opinion goes on to cite witnesses who testify that the area is often used as a place of prayer, which could lend credence to such a finding.

That has a weakness of its own; if I go to the park down the block and pray there, has the city "established" religion by placing ducks in the lake?

I only wanted to point out the scope of the opinion, which has been little talked about on the Board, without painting everything with a broad brush.
 

Scott J

Active Member
Site Supporter
Can someone who opposes this display please tell me what religion is being established by its presence? Does it represent some form of coerced conversion? Is there any reason to believe that justice will not be meted out fairly and in accordance with the highest moral principles and even-handedness because of this monument?

This isn't about the Constitution nor the imposition of a state religion. It is all about a bunch of whiners that are offended. It is as if they consider open acts or displays of Christianity in the same vein as a moral nation once considered public nudity and lude conduct (like homosexuals kissing in a public parade).

Why is it that when conservative Christians speak up when we are offended, we are warned not to restrict someone else's rights but when others are offended we are told to back off lest we violate their rights? I don't claim the right to not be offended... I simply don't accept other's claim of it either.

Truth is- the 10 Commandments were written to the hearer (reader). They are for application to self, not others. The principles they embody are the foundation stone for self-governance in America or any other successful free society.

Our founders established a nation under these principles in which men were expected to conduct their daily lives in such a way as to sustain the blessings of liberty. Responsibility and morality didn't need to be legislated.

It is not surprising that liberals want the 10 Commandments and their message gone. In a nation governed by individual moral restraint, they lose all power to control and indoctrinate others.

It would be far more accurate to say that the thoughtful opposers of this display are far more intent on establishing their religious principles by law than is Justice Moore. To my knowledge, he has yet to inhibit the free exercise of anyone's religion... but his accusers are inhibiting the religious will of 80% of Alabamans. Remarkable how useless democracy is when liberals don't get things their way.
 

showard93

New Member
Well this is JMO but I am behind Judge Moore. That is the problem today is that we Christians sit back and let things like this happen so I say God Bless you Judge Moore
thumbs.gif
Also why is it that everyone is so against getting rid of stuff because we might hurt this one or that one but no one thought of that say just 30 or so years ago.
 

Ed Edwards

<img src=/Ed.gif>
Jailminister: "10 I stand in front of
abortion clinics every week and protest ..."

Reminds me of my cousin.

He has only seen his mother a few times
in the last 12 years. He jumped bail
in the state where she lives and isn't free
to go back there.
Yes, this Mennonite pastor has adoped
four unwanted children and raises them with
his own two.
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dear Scott,

You responded to one of my posts...

I'm looking for the command that says that taking down the 10 commandments is sinful. And then there's the burden of proof of connecting taking down the 10 commandments with the result of immorality.
Personally, I see this as a symbolic act of a 21st century prophet reminding America and its government of our motto :

IN GOD WE TRUST?

HankD
 
Top