Help with a Jewish guy...

[jw]

Ok, there is this orthodox Jewish guy that a friend of mine has been talking to. He is unwilling to accept anything in the NT because it says we are no longer bound to the Law. He is really hung up on the "these will be a statute to all generations..." thing, and believes God would never change the way He deals with people (in regard to the law anyway).

Can you help me find one (or both) of these things in the OT:

1. A clear prophecy that God would change the way He deals with people, as He does under the NT.

2. An OT example of how God changed the way He dealt with His people *after* the giving of the Law.

Thanks,
JW

 

[Me4Him]

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock,

Ro 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Ask him if he can explain why Israel has been without a "Temple/Sacrifices" for "TWO THOUSAND YEARS".

Ho 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. (day=1000 years)

 

[Pastor Larry]

Jesus said that the Scriptures point to him. Point out that if he really accepted teh Law, he would accept Christ. Christ said that MOses and the prophets point to him, "but you are unwilling to come to [him] that you might have life." John 5 and John 8 are great passages for this.

 

[Brother Ian]

I agree Pastor Larry, but they will discount the passages you reference because they are in the New Testament.

How do you get them to recognize Jesus is the Messiah?

 

[StefanM]

Isa. 53 is a good reference.

 

[jw]

As for Jeremiah's New Covenant, the guy thinks that when the NC starts the Law will still be in effect, everyone will just do the things automatically.

NT quotations have no effect on him, he won't even take a NT when we try to give him one.

He is interested in talking about Christianity alot. But when asked "who do you think Jesus was?" he won't ever give a straight answer.

 

[Pastor Larry]

You can use OT passages, but ultimately they will say that the Jesus of the NT isn't the Messiah, so quoting Isaiah 53 or some other passage won't help.

Ultimately, you depend on Rom 1:16, that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation. If they won't believe it, then there is no hope. But there really isn't any alternative. Christ says, "I am he of the OT prophecy. Believe in me." Why should we try to do more than that?

 

[El_Guero]

JW

Start with the LAW. Ask him if he has told a lie - he is a liar, etc. Ray Comfort's web page

While I do not like giving you a BIG answer to go after, Ray does about the best job I have seen or heard of using the law with unbelievers.

G

 

[El_Guero]

"How to Effectively Use the Law" is the second audio, you can listen to it for free: web page

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
You can use OT passages, but ultimately they will say that the Jesus of the NT isn't the Messiah, so quoting Isaiah 53 or some other passage won't help.

Ultimately, you depend on Rom 1:16, that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation. If they won't believe it, then there is no hope. But there really isn't any alternative. Christ says, "I am he of the OT prophecy. Believe in me." Why should we try to do more than that?

Exactly correct. You will not convince a worldly man with worldly wisdom about spiritual things. It is only the power of God that will save your friend. Your job is to share the Gospel, it is God's job to save your friend.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Petrel]

Hebrews makes an argument for Jesus as the fulfillment of the Law (especially chapters 8-10). Of course he may discount this since it is a New Testament book, but it's worth a try if he will read it.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Petrel:
Hebrews makes an argument for Jesus as the fulfillment of the Law (especially chapters 8-10). Of course he may discount this since it is a New Testament book, but it's worth a try if he will read it.

Jews interpret scripture "LITERALLY" rather than "Spiritually" as the church, so in order to "SHOW HIM" (signs and wonders, Jews require a sign) Jesus came in the "FOURTH DAY", read the following "link", then explain it to him.

[URLhttp://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3398.html[/URL]

Better yet, have "HIM READ IT", believe me, they (JEWS) will understand it better than most "Christians".

 

[TexasSky]

Pray that God opens their ears and hearts to the message.

In regards to certain things though. No modern Jew, even orthodox, truly lives by old testament law. They don't stone people, they don't build alters and burn lambs, they don't throw their women out of the bedroom during her time. They don't take many wives.

Many Jews do not know that Christ fulfilled the prophecy. I have met some who do not know He is of the house of David. They think He was born in Nazareth, and therefore cannot be the Messiah. The are not familiar with the fact that He fled to Egypt and returned, so they don't think He fulfilled those prophecies.

If they truly want to know "how you can think Christ is the Messiah," the answers would be to start with your own testimony, but beyond that, ask them what they believe the prophecies are, and show how Christ fulfilled them. In regards to the law, tell them, "Christ never tells us that the law does not matter. He tells us that we do not need blood sacrifice to atone for the violations of the law." To me, this is true. Christ said, "I came to fulfill the law, not to destroy it." It is still wrong to murder, still wrong to commit adultry.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
Pray that God opens their ears and hearts to the message.

In regards to certain things though. No modern Jew, even orthodox, truly lives by old testament law. They don't stone people, they don't build alters and burn lambs, they don't throw their women out of the bedroom during her time. They don't take many wives.

Many Jews do not know that Christ fulfilled the prophecy. I have met some who do not know He is of the house of David. They think He was born in Nazareth, and therefore cannot be the Messiah. The are not familiar with the fact that He fled to Egypt and returned, so they don't think He fulfilled those prophecies.

If they truly want to know "how you can think Christ is the Messiah," the answers would be to start with your own testimony, but beyond that, ask them what they believe the prophecies are, and show how Christ fulfilled them. In regards to the law, tell them, "Christ never tells us that the law does not matter. He tells us that we do not need blood sacrifice to atone for the violations of the law." To me, this is true. Christ said, "I came to fulfill the law, not to destroy it." It is still wrong to murder, still wrong to commit adultry.

You just remined me of something I had "forgot".

Mt 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

Mt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Jews say: "According to scripture" no prophet arise from "GALILEE", (Jesus) but ask him to find out where Jonas came from.

Joh 7:52 They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.

 

[Marcia]

Would building on the teaching that men were saved by faith, not the law, even in the OT help?

Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness. Gen. 15.6

 

[PamelaK]

Since he won't look at a NT I would recommend a series of booklets called The Y'shua Challenge: Answers for Those Who Say Jews Can't Believe in Jesus, by Purple Pomegranate Productions 80 Page Street, San Francisco, CA 94102 (a division of Jews for Jesus) I have the first in the series. There is plenty of OT, NT and discussion included.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

I would stick with the Bible, and faithfully proclaim the good news of Christ, and then trust God to convict this person of the truth.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[PamelaK]

Joseph - always the best advice.
In this vein, I wanted to add I'm pretty sure there's a Bible out there that highlights (has highlighted) or marked in some way the fulfillments in the NT and the prophecies in the OT. I was looking through my material and couldn't find the info but I think the International Board of Jewish Missions has it.(IBJM in Hixson, Texas)

 

[jw]

This is all going about the way I thought. I just don't think the guy will accept the change in the Law until he accepts Christ.

He has accepted one of Josh McDowells books (the one with the liar, lunatic, or Lord thing), and apparently that has had some effect on him. But he's very tight lipped about what he's thinking.

I was actually told he believes that they (the Jews) are justified by faith, and not by keeping the Law. Which is a step in the right direction. I don't know if that makes it easier or harder to share Christ with him.

 

[bapmom]

jw,

ive heard testimonies of Jewish folk coming to Christ, and in every case it has taken them quite a long time, both studying on their own, and conversing with someone who understands Jewish thinking and the Bible.
Their belief must hinge on them being convinced that Jesus is the fulfillment of the OT Law and Prophecies. Keep on giving him good things to think about, and praying. I believe it will take time.