Here's Something That Will Make You Think!!

[Ed Edwards]

Matthew 24:14 (HCSB):

This good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed
in all the world as a testimony to all nations.
And then the end will come.


Items quoted from THE ALMANAC OF THE CHRISTIAN WORLD,
1991-1992 Edition (Tyndale, 1990), page 305+.

61AD - Colossians 1:6 (HCSB):
the gospel that has come to you. It is bearing fruit
and growing all over the world, just as it has
among you since the day you heard it and recognized
God's grace in the truth.

c. 140AD - Hermas writes: "The Son of God ... has
been preached to the ends of the earth" (Shepherd
of Hermas).

197AD - Tertullian (c160-222) ... writes ... "There
is no nation indeed which is not Christian" ...

c. 205AD - Clement of Alexandria (c155-215) ... writes
"The whole world, with Athens and Greece, has already
become the domain of the Word."

c. 310 - Eusebius of Caesarea (c265-339) writes ...
""The doctrine of the Savious
has irradiated the whole Oikumene
(whole inhabited earth)"

378 - Jerome (c345-419) writes: "From India to Britian, all
nations resound with the death and resurrection of CHrist".
estimates 1.9 million Christians to have been marytred
since AD33 (out of 120 million Christians). ...

etc.

Then this prophecy is of the entire Church Age that starts
at Pentecost 33AD (some say 30AD) and ends at the
pretribulation rapture/resurrection of the Church Age,
mostly Gentile, born-again, saved, elect staints.
(LIkewise, Matthew 24:4-14 and the parallel
Mount Olivet Discource /MOD/ message of Christ found in Mark 13
and Luke 17 & 21 -- all these prophecies are of
the continuing Church Age.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Luk 21:20-12 (KJV1611 Edition):
And when yee shall see Hierusalem compassed with armies,
then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Iudea, flee to the mountaines,
and let them which are in the midst of it, depart out,
and let not them that are in the countreys, enter thereinto.

Personally I live not in Judea but in the USofA.
I'll not be entering Judea when Jerusalem is
compassed with armies.

Mel: //It goes beyond my naivete to understand how you totally IGNORE the
Word of the Lord that the Saints will be "gathered by the angels from all
extremities of the heavens" AFTER the great tribulation;
but BEFORE those LEFT BEHIND are rescued and kept
alive ON THAT DAY to populate and inherit the eternal Kingdom on Earth!!
Matt.25:32-34; Rev.21:24-26.//

Unfortunately, your scriptures do NOT support your contentions.

Mel: // ... the Saints will be "gathered by the angels from all
extremities of the heavens" AFTER the great tribulation; ... //

The saints here are Jewish Israeli First-Covent elect saints (and the church
composed thereof) that were protected through the last half
of the Tribulation Period (also known as /AKA/: Great Tribulation Period,
The WRATH OF GOD, etc.) by the hand of God.
The nations of Rev 21:24-26 are those sheep nations that were selected
by God to go into the Physical Millinnial Messanic Kingdom at the
Sheep & Goat Nations Judgement right after the Tribulation Period and
right before the Physical Millinnial Messanic Kingdom.

 

[Mel Miller]

Will Make You Think

Ed Edwards,

In Post #33 you wrote:
Mat 24:38 (KJV1611 Edition):
For as in the dayes that were before the Flood, they were eating, and drinking, marrying, and giuing in mariage, vntill the day that Noe entred into the Arke,


Mat 24:39 And knew not vntill the Flood came, and tooke them all away: so shall also the coming of the Sonne of man be.

The referrant for 'them' in verse 39 is 'Noe' in verse 38. So it was Noah & his family that were taken; the evil people were LEFT BEHIND.

In Matthew’s account “THEY” refers to the unrighteous acting wickedly until Noah entered the Ark but THEN, you argue, “THEY” are not the ones “Taken Away.” So I used the parallel passage in Luke to see if you would acknowledge “THEY” were “DESTROYED by the flood”!

Your “switch” from the correct antecedent is characteristic of your method of manipulating the meaning of words, i.e., like claiming that “AFTER the great tribulation” means “BEFORE the tribulation” and that "DAY" means 7 years!

Luke uses the words “DESTROYED THEM ALL” instead of “THEY WERE ALL TAKEN AWAY”! So “THEY” could NOT be Noah and his family taken away to safety by the Ark as you claim. This should have caused you to acknowledge your error. But you consistently change the meaning of words to suit your fancy. I wonder if you are capable of admitting error in light of the following:

Because now, my erstwhile friend, in post #42, you make another switch from your prior interpretation of WHEN the "Elect are gathered by the Angels from all extremities of the heavens” in Matt.24:31. Up until now you had insisted these Elect are gathered in the PRE-TRIB RAPTURE!!!
_________________________________________________



Quote:

“The saints here are Jewish Israeli First-Covent elect saints (and the church composed thereof) that were protected through the last half of the Tribulation Period”

So here are two new manipulations on the same day!

ONE: You manipulate the word THEY to refer to Noah being TAKEN TO SAFETY in the Ark when Luke shows THEY were the UNRIGHTEOUS who were TAKEN AWAY, “DESTROYED”! Luke 17:27. Noah and family were LEFT BEHIND to repopulate the earth.

The JEWS who “mourn” will also be Left Behind on the Last Day! They will be "kept alive" to populate the Millennial Kingdom. Luke 17:33. The one TAKEN OR LEFT has nothing to do with the Rapture. The Flood was a type of the destruction of the unrighteous on the DAY of Deliverance for all the Jews ... AFTER the righteous have been gathered above unto Jesus!! Matt.24:30 and 24:31 occur on the DAY of Destruction for the wicked and Deliverance for the Jews.

TWO: You had manipulated the words “gather the Elect” in Matt.24:31 to refer to a Pre-Trib Rapture. But now you make these words refer to the rescue of Jews at the POST-TRIB Presence of Christ as He sends the angels to gather the Elect whom He will have just gathered from earth to heaven! Take the cake for juggling truth to fit any scenario!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

[skypair]

Mel,

"Why would Jesus send the angels to gather ISRAEL out of the 4 winds from all extremities of the heavens" AS YOU CLAIM ... and ABANDON the Saints ON EARTH????

It's all part of your MISconception, my friend. Let's just start with the basics. Rev 19 is Christ and His armies coming to Armageddon. What happens AFTER that? Rev 20:4 -- judgment seats.

What is described in Mt 24:31 is the preparation for the latter. It is not a localized event like Amrageddon is. It is not Jesus "armies" like Armageddon is. It is "angels."

Now look what the angels are doing -- "gather[ing] together his elect from the four winds [of the earth], FROM [not to] one end of heaven to the other." That is, the angels gather the BELIEVERS' (remember - the "tares" have already been gathered first, Mt 13:41) living and the dead bodies from the earth. And other angels bring the SOULS and SPIRITS of the dead FROM heaven. This is the same as Psa 50:4 -- "He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. "

What happens to the living believers then? IMO, same as happened to Philip! One second he's dunking the Ethiopian -- the next he's in Azotus! Only these will be gathered to Jerusalem for judgment, Psa 50:3-5, Mt 13:43-50, Dan 12:2 (see the "wheat?"), Mt 25:14-46, Rev 20:4.

See, Philip's body wasn't glorified enroute to Azotus, was it. And there will not only be Jewish/Israel believers left but also the nations, tongues, etc. to bring to Jerusalem -- thus, the 4 descriptions in Mt 13:43-50 of different "types" of gatherings.

Finally, it is because I see this that I DON'T see Luke 21:34-36 as referring to the end-of-trib saints but as those who "escape" the trib snares of the AC.

Just to summarize, you are passing off the "resurrection of the just" (mostly OT Israel) for the rapture -- which it ain't! Plus you have misapplied Luke 21:36 to all of Luke 21 when, in reality, it refers only to Luke 21:35.

But there's one more little matter of WHO is coming for us, Mel. Scripture says it is Christ, not "angels." Read John 14:1-3. Then read Acts 1:11. Do YOU see angels in Acts 1:11? Now, do you see the "cloud?" As He disappeared in the cloud, He will appear (Rev 4:1) to take us to the cloud (1Thes 4:17) and to heaven where He was going in Acts 1:11, John 14:5-6.

skypair

 

[Mel Miller]

Make You Think

skypair,

I am responding to the final 4 paragraphs of your post this morning as I actually AGREE with you except for parts of two sentences. Then I will respond to the first 4 paragraphs in which you ask that we start with the "BASICS".

Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
And there will not only be Jewish/Israel believers left but also the nations, tongues, etc. to bring to Jerusalem -- thus, the 4 descriptions in Mt 13:43-50 of different "types" of gatherings.

Finally, it is because I see this that I DON'T see Luke 21:34-36 referring to the end-of-trib saints but those who "escape" the trib snares of AC.

Just to summarize, you are passing off the "resurrection of the just"
(mostly OT Israel) for the rapture -- which it ain't! You have misapplied Luke 21:36 to all of Luke 21 when, in reality, it refers only to Luke 21:35.

But there's one more little matter of WHO is coming for us, Mel. Scripture says it is Christ, not "angels." John 14:1-3; Acts 1:11. Do YOU see angels in Acts 1:11? Now, do you see the "cloud?" As He disappeared in the cloud, He will appear (Rev 4:1) to take us to the cloud (1Thes 4:17) and to heaven where He was going in Acts 1:11, John 14:5-6. skypair
_____________________________________________________________
ONE:
My main proposition is that the Jews who "mourn and beg to escape all that happens on the DAY they behold Jesus coming will be KEPT ALIVE to
populate the Millennial Kingdom. They will be joined by up to a billion of the descendants of Ishmael's 12 tribes who will also "beg to escape all these things in order to stand before the Son of Man". Luke 21:28-36.
TWO:
I also "do not see Luke 21:34-36 as referring to the end-of-trib saints"!
But you falsely assume they "beg to escape the trib snares of the AC"!
They BEG to ESCAPE God's wrath on the only DAY that none can escape unless they are "willing to die" and not just to qualify for paradise as suicide bombers. Luke 17:30-33. This occurs ON THE DAY Christ appears!
THREE:
You claim I am "passing off the resurrection of the just for the rapture ... which it aint"! Why do you constantly ignore the Word of the Lord that "He will raise up all believers on the last day because it is His Father's will to raise up every believer on the last day"? Jesus stated this four times! Jno.6:38-40,44,54. Are you deliberately denying the holy word of Jesus??
FOUR:
I agree that the "begging to escape" in Luke 21:36 directly "refers only to Luke 21:35" because it occurs ON THE SAME DAY CHRIST IS REVEALED FROM HEAVEN IN FLAMING FIRE TO TAKE VENGEANCE ON ALL WHO REJECT THE GOSPEL. It also refers to "all THINGS that happens (plural subject with singular verb) from the moment they see the signs in the sun, moon and stars ON THAT SAME DAY!! Luke 21:25-34.
FIVE:
Why do you not see the angels coming for us? Is it because you reject the Word of the Lord regarding "ALL believers being raised up on the last
day"? AND my point here is that JESUS does the "gathering FROM earth
to heaven" before the angels complete the "gathering out of the same 4 winds FROM all the extremities of the heavens". If you accept His word
that "HE SENDS THE ANGELS", then out of respect for His holy word, you will also accept that He gathers us FROM the earth FIRST. Mark 13:27.

"He sends the angels (apostelei) and He gathers the elect (episunaxei) from the ends of the earth (singular vertical destination from earth) before the angels gather (episunaxousin) us from all extremities of the heavenS unto Jesus at the Synagogue" in the Sky (from plural points of reference around the entire globe)!! 2 Thess.2:1.

One hundred verses in Revelation are fulfilled on the DAY of Destruction for the wicked and Deliverance for the Saints. We are taken by Jesus "from the earth ON THAT DAY". AND the Jews and descendants of Ishmael who SUDDENLY bow and beg for mercy will be "KEPT ALIVE" to populate the everlasting Davidic Kingdom on the Earth. Luke 17:33; Rev.21:24-26.

Believers will already be "caught up to meet the Lord in the air when five million Jews are LEFT BEHIND and they and up to a billion Muslims continue to "look up and to mourn and keep begging to escape DURING THE HOUR OF TRIAL coming on all the earth"! Rev.1:7; Rev.3:10-11; Mark 13:24-27; Matt.24:30-31; Luke 21:35-36; 2 Thess.1:7-10. These things occur ON THE SAME DAY Christ appears and "every eye beholds HIM and ALL THE SAINTS coming with Him"! Rev.1:7.

NEXT: Response to your first four paragraphs regarding the BASICS.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :applause:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller: //Because now, my erstwhile friend, in post #42, you make another switch from your prior interpretation of WHEN the "Elect are gathered by the Angels from all extremities of the heavens" in Matt.24:31. Up until now you had insisted these Elect are gathered in the PRE-TRIB RAPTURE!!!//

Here is what you said:
Mel Miller:// ... the Saints will be "gathered by the angels from all
extremities of the heavens" AFTER the great tribulation; ... //

Your citation of what I said in post #42 was in response to your statement.
Your statement says "AFTER the great tribulation" - it cannot be talking
about the 'PRE-TRIB RAPTURE'. So I was talking about YOUR interpertation
of Matthew 24:31, not my interpertation of Matthew 24:31.

Here again is Eds understanding of Matthew 24
(granted by the Holy Spirit about the year 2000, the last year of the
19th century):
--------------------------------------------
In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. 'Polysyndeton' is a retorical device that uses
(in English) repeated connectors (usually 'and')
instead of an outline. This is most noticable
in the Bible in Genesis 1 and Matthew 24.
I believe the major outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc.)

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.

--------------------------------------------------
Brother DeafPosttrib has noted nearby that 90% of pretribulationists
believe that Matthew is for JEWS only and that Matthew 24:31
refers to the postribulation rapture/resurrection.
(not 'postribualtion ONLY rapture/resurrection).

 

[Mel Miller]

Make You Think

skypair,

NOW for the BASICS.
I wrote, Quote:
"Why would Jesus send the angels to gather ISRAEL out of the 4 winds from all extremities of the heavens" AS YOU CLAIM ... and ABANDON the Saints ON EARTH????

Your Response:
It's all part of your MISconception. Let's just start with the basics. Rev 19 is Christ and His armies coming to Armageddon. What happens AFTER that? Rev 20:4 -- judgment seats.

What is described in Mt 24:31 is the preparation for the latter. It is not a localized event like Amrageddon is. It is not Jesus "armies" like Armageddon is. It is "angels."

Now look what the angels are doing -- "gather[ing] together his elect from the four winds [of the earth], FROM [not to] one end of heaven to the other." That is, the angels gather the BELIEVERS' (remember - the "tares" have already been gathered first, Mt 13:41) living and the dead bodies from the earth. And other angels bring the SOULS and SPIRITS of the dead FROM heaven. This is the same as Psa 50:4 -- "He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. "
_____________________________________________________________

My friend, your view of the Basics assumes the JUDGMENT by the SOULS of the Martyrs in Rev.20:4 occurs AFTER the slaughter at ARMAGEDDON! That should be the basic "misconception" to which you refer.

Instead, John still sees only the SOULS of the martyrs by retroactively returning to the Court scene of Seal 7 and Dan.7:9-22 during which God and the Martyrs SIT on thrones in judgment on the wicked. Daniel does the same as he "keeps looking" at the Judgment Scene, "presentation of the Son of Man to the Ancient of Days" and the Coronation of Christ ... moments before He descends with the Saints to "destroy the Beast and give the kindgom to the people of the saints". Dan.7:27.

The first half of Rev.20:4 (20:4a) looks retrospectively at the Judgment Scene of Seal Seven (Rev.8:1-5) which must occur before the First Resurrection of Rev.20:4b. Like Daniel, John had already looked back, FROM Rev.15:5 TO the Open Temple in Rev.7:9 for the scenes in the Temple in heaven. There the Martyrs had entered the open Temple from Rev.7:9 to 8:5 and Rev.11:15-19 for the Judgment and the Coronation of Christ and to hear the announcement that "God's wrath had come". John keeps looking back (flashbacks as in Daniel) to the climactic events of the Last Day.

Your assumption is false that the Judgment of Rev.20:4 occurs AFTER Armageddon. Even the Resurrection itself occurs before the slaughter at Armageddon. Armageddon and destruction of the Beast are results of the Court of Seal 7 and Dan.7. The Saints are all resurrected and taken above BEFORE Christ destroys the wicked. Matt.24:31 precedes the destruction at Armageddon; but both the Resurrection and Retribuation occur on the SAME DAY Christ is revealed with the Saints.

You actually admit the truth about the gathering by the angels: "Angels bring the SOULS and SPIRITS of the dead FROM heaven". They therefore
"gather" the resurrected and raptured bodies of the Saints unto Jesus!

The BASICS require the armies gathered to Armageddon (tares gathered "first" as you admit) before the Martyrs "Sit in Judgment" on the SAME DAY Christ comes with the Saints to "destroy those destroying the earth".

So the First Resurrection of Rev.20:4-5 for the Martyrs (and all Believers)and for the Rapture of the Saints and for Retribution upon the wicked are separately announced as "having come" at the first sound of the 7th Trumpet ... the "Last Trump" of I Cor.15:52; Rev.11:18. It sounds a 2nd time for Jesus to "gather the elect from the earth" and finally, the 3rd time, as the "great trumpet sounds for the angels to finish gathering us unto Jesus" at the Synagogue in the Sky. Matt.24:31; 2 Thess.2:1.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Npetreley after posting Matthew 24:29-31:
//Parallel passage in Revelation:

(Bolding by ed):

Revelation 6:12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”//

Oops, this isn't parallel to the Second Advent of Jesus event
(Matthew 24:29-30) nor the pretribualtion rapture (Matthew 24:31).
It describes something that STARTS the Tribulation Period.

Compare this with the earthquake at the end of the Tribulation Period:

Rev 16:17-21 (KJV1611 Edition):

And the seuenth Angel powred out his viall into the ayre, and there came a great voyce out of the Temple of heauen, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices and thunders, and lightnings: and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were vpon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great Citie was diuided into three parts, and the Cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to giue vnto her the cup of the wine of the fiercenesse of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And euery yland fled away, and the mountaines were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell vpon men a great haile out of heauen, euery stone about the weight of a talent, and men blasphemed God, because of the plague of the hayle: for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

In Rev 6 every "mountain ... was moved out of its place";
but in Rev 16 "the mountaines were not found".

In Rev 6 every "island was moved out of its place";
but in Rev 16 "euery yland fled away".

The wrath of the Lamb begins in Revelation 6 at the beginning of
the Tribulation period: the wrath of God is described in Revelation
16-18 near the end of the Tribulation period. The Living Church of the Living Christ
gathered before that earthquake will NOT suffer through
the 'wrath of the Lamb' NOR the 'wrath of God'.

Tribulation Period = (Wrath) the light 'wrath of God' on sinners
Great Tribualtion Period = (Wrathier) the heavy 'wrath of God'
---on sinners alive at the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
Eternal Hell Fire = (Wrathiest) 'wrath of God' on sinners
--- dead & alive.

 

[tinytim]

Is there someway to download that video so that I can show it at church?

 

[Mel Miller]

Make You Think

EE,

There's no such thing as a Light vs. Heavy wrath of God. Escape from God's wrath is hopeless unless a person repents and begs for mercy on the Last Day. That's the only DAY of either Destruction or Deliverance!

Quote:
___________________________________________________________
The wrath of the Lamb begins in Revelation 6 at the beginning of the Tribulation period: the wrath of God is described in Revelation 16-18
near the end of the Tribulation period. The Living Church of the Living Christ gathered before that earthquake will NOT suffer through the
'wrath of the Lamb' NOR the 'wrath of God'.
___________________________________________________________

You continue to assume God's wrath comes at the start of 7 Years rather than at the END ... and only on the Last Day when Gentile times END!

God's wrath does not strike until the last martyr "who must be killed has been killed". Rev.6:9-11. That wrath occurs on the DAY that is launched by the signs of Seal Six. But even then, the armies must have been first gathered to Armageddon for the slaughter by God's "anger and wrath".

There are multiple quakes on that SAME DAY. The first quake makes the mountains and islands begin to move out of their places. This causes men already hiding in the mountains, because of the invading armies, to cry out for the mountains to fall on them. They recognize the signs of
the Day of the Lord and that "no one can escape"! Rev.6:12-17.

Then there's a quake that kills 7000 in a tenth of Jerusalem ... in the same hour the Two Prophets rise up to heaven on the Last Day. Rev.11:12-14. Then another quake accompanies the Court's Verdict at the close of Seal 7, Rev.8:5; and another quake at the 7th Trumpet's proclamation that "God's wrath has come"; then history's greatest quake as the wine of the "Cup of God's anger and wrath" pours out on all mankind. Rev.16:18-21.

The tidal waves (tsunamis) set loose by the first Quake and by the four winds let loose on that DAY cause "men's hearts to fail as the seas and surfs" batter the mainlands and the islands and mountains "continue to move out of their places". Finally, the aftershocks of history's greatest
quake destory cities and mountains globally and join the islands to their mainlands; for they no longer appear as islands ... they "flee away"!

EE, the false idea of a 7-Year-Day still distorts your vision and concept of the nature of God's wrath. Wrath occurs only ON THE SINGLE DAY CHRIST IS REVEALED. Luke 17:27-30. Only those who are "willing to die" (but NOT to gain paradise as a reward for suicide bombers) will escape, will be kept alive and will stand before the Son of Man". Luke 17:33; Luke 21:36. The martyrs will "serve God as Pillars in heaven's Temple for 1000 years" for not "loving their life unto death" for Christ. Rev.3:10-12; Rev.7:15-17; Rev.20:4-6. Survivors to the END will reign on the Earth. Rev.2:25-27.

Again, your false concept of ONE DAY=7 YEARS assumes the Saints will be rescued 7 years before Armageddon; 7 years before the 7th Trumpet sounds that God's wrath and the appointed time for resurrection, rapture, rewards and retribution have come! Rev.11:18. Seals 6 and 7 occur between the 6th and 7th Vials of God's ANGER (THUMOS) ... WHILE armies are already gathered at Armageddon on the LAST DAY!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller: //There's no such thing as a Light vs. Heavy wrath of God.//

Interesting. Sorry, but it makes you sound like some simplistic legalist.
Simplistic legalists insist that anybody who doesn't explain God
in the SAME EXACT WORDS that they use - that person isn't really
saved. Sorry, but these simple simply wrong legalists don't realise that
different people put different values on words: that one person can
believe just like another using different words; that two people can disagree
while using the same, exact words.

Mel Miller: //You continue to assume God's wrath comes at the start of 7 Years rather than at the END ... and only on the Last Day when Gentile times END!//

It is NOT an assumption. I believe the week, day, 70th week of Daniel
is seven years: the first half (3½-years) is Tribulation Lite (or wrath lite)
and the second half (3½-years) is Tribulation Heavy (wrath heavy).

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller: //Wrath occurs only ON THE SINGLE DAY CHRIST
IS REVEALED. Luke 17:27-30.//

Amen, brother Mel -- Preach it!

That single day is the 70th week of Daniel, a 7-year period.

definitions:

Day - the appropriate time
Week - the appropriate time
Year - the appropriate time

Luk 17:30 (KJV1611 Edition):
Euen thus shall it bee in the day
when the Sonne of man is reuealed.

Strong's sez:
G2250
ἡμέρα
hēmera
hay-mer'-ah
Feminine (with G5610 implied) of a derivative of ἧμαι hēmai
(to sit; akin to the base of G1476) meaning tame, that is,
gentle; day, that is, (literally) the time space between dawn
and dark, or the whole 24 hours (but several days were
usually reckoned by the Jews as inclusive of the parts of both
extremes); figuratively a period (always defined more
or less clearly by the context): - age, + alway, (mid-) day
(by day, [-ly]), + for ever, judgment, (day) time, while, years.

 

[Mel Miller]

Will Make Your Think

Mel Miller: //Wrath occurs only ON THE SINGLE DAY CHRIST
IS REVEALED. Luke 17:27-30.//

Amen, brother Mel -- Preach it!

That single day is the 70th week of Daniel, a 7-year period.

definitions:

Day - the appropriate time
Week - the appropriate time
Year - the appropriate time

Luk 17:30 (KJV1611 Edition):
Euen thus shall it bee in the day
when the Sonne of man is reuealed.

Strong's sez:
G2250
ἡμέρα
hēmera
hay-mer'-ah
Feminine (with G5610 implied) of a derivative of ἧμαι hēmai
(to sit; akin to the base of G1476) meaning tame, that is,
gentle; day, that is, (literally) the time space between dawn
and dark, or the whole 24 hours (but several days were
usually reckoned by the Jews as inclusive of the parts of both
extremes); figuratively a period (always defined more
or less clearly by the context): - age, + alway, (mid-) day
(by day, [-ly]), + for ever, judgment, (day) time, while, years.

Your extensive knowledge is a poor cover up for evasiveness.

When Jesus predicted the Jews would suffer the DAYS of Vengeance "until the Times of the Gentiles are Finished", He revealed what He meant by "THIS GENERATION not passing away until all these things are *fulfilled*"!

Paul predicted that "all Israel will be saved on the DAY of Vengeance!!
That DAY cannot be one of the DAYS of Vengeance once the "Mystery of God" and the Prophetic Time-Span of 1260 days are also *fulfilled* within
3 1/2 days of the 7th Trumpet sounding that "God's wrath has come"!!

God's combined anger and wrath during the HOUR of Trial forces all men to bow their knees in worship while begging for mercy or their tongues will rot in their mouths as their knees buckle involuntarily in recognition of the Glory of God in Christ!!!

Evidently your limpid view of the "low" and "high" stages of God's wrath is so shallow that it doesn't recognize either the awesomeness of God's Glory on that DAY nor the ghastly effects of His Wrath in that HOUR!!!!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

[Ed Edwards]

The following uses:
rapture - like a resurrection but for the living
resurrection - being raised from the dead & given
a new body

--------------------------------------------------
I will show IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)

The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period. FOR IT IS WRITTEN
in Daniel 9:26-27 (nKJV):

"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah
shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to
come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations
are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with
many for one week; But in the middle
of the week He shall bring an end
to sacrifice and offering. And on
the wing of abominations shall be
one who makes desolate, Even until
the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate."

Please note the lower case "h" in "he" in verse 27
refering not to Messiah in verse 26 but the
to the 'prince that shall come', not the Messiah Prince.
Note that the capital 'H' in the second 'He'
is to start a line of poetry - it also refers to
the 'prince that shall come', not the Messiah Prince.
Note it is written that the Anti-messiah's seven years
are divided in the middle by the abomination
of desolation (AOD), dividing the 7-year period into
to parts each 3½-years long (1260 days, 42 months).

The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection,
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 1 Thessalonains 4:13-18 (KJV1873):

But I would not have you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning them which are asleep,
that ye sorrow not, even as others which have
no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose
again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus
will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of
the Lord, that we which are alive and remain
unto the coming of the Lord shall
not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from
heaven with a shout, with the voice
of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them
in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath) FOR IT IS WRITTEN in
1 Thessalonains 5:1-10 (KJV1873):

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren,
ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so cometh as
a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say,
Peace and safety; then sudden destruction
cometh upon them, as travail upon
a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness,
that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light,
and the children of the day: we are
not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others;
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night;
and they that be drunken are drunken
in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day,
be sober, putting on the breastplate
of faith and love; and for an helmet,
the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether
we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together,
and edify one another, even as also ye do.

The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (KJV1873):

Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
or be troubled, neither by spirit,
nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come, except
there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;

I have shown IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)

 

[Mel Miller]

Make You Think

EE,

Your scripture proves the Post-Trib Resurrection/Rapture of all the Saints.
Quotes:
______________________________________________________________
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection, FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 1 Thessalonains 4:13-18 (KJV1873).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering) is at the beginning of the Tribulation period (time of the Anti-messiah).
______________________________________________________________

The reference to the resurrection/rapture in I Thess.4 INCLUDES all those
who die in the Lord. Trib-Martyrs "die in the Lord"! Rev.14:13. Therefore the resurrection/rapture must include NOT ONLY those who have died in the Lord during the great tribulation; but ALSO those who "survive and remain until the Presence of the Lord and His gathering of the elect from earth to heaven AND our gathering unto Jesus by the angels immediately after the great tribulation"!! I Thess.4:17; Mark 13:24,27; Matt.24:29,31.

Friends, please note that EE has never responded to my challenge that
he should acknowledge the Word of the Lord Himself because of "His wish (repeated 3 times) to do the Father's will and by stating four times that He will "raise up every/all believers on the Last Day". John 6:38-40,44,54.

He evades and avoids the issue by claiming that DAY is seven-years!!!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller: //Friends, please note that EE has never responded to my challenge that
he should acknowledge the Word of the Lord Himself because of "His wish
(repeated 3 times) to do the Father's will and by stating four times that
He will "raise up every/all believers on the Last Day". John 6:38-40,44,54.//

Actually I blew your 'postribulation ONLY rapture/resurrection' right
out of the water time and time again. IMHO I have responded to
your every challenge and with superior Biblically Based logic.
Jesus does raise up every/all believers on the Last Day.
This LAST DAY is described as Daniel's 70th week in
Daniel 9:24-27. There it is described as a 'seven' or 'week' of years.
The LAST DAY starts with the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
and ends with the postribulation rapture/resurrection.
That day is 7-years long, as is the 70th week of Daniel -
they are the same thing.

Again (and you can find it in your dictionary:

hour = the appropriate time
day = the appropriate time
month = the appropriate time
year = the appropriate time
7-years ( a 'week') = the appropriate time
millinnium = the appropraite time

Thus I use the principle of letting one part of the scripture
illuminate the other part of the scripture.

Mel Miller: //Therefore the resurrection/rapture must include NOT ONLY those who have died in the Lord during the great tribulation; but ALSO those who "survive and remain until the Presence of the Lord and His gathering of the elect from earth to heaven AND our gathering unto Jesus by the angels immediately after the great tribulation"!! I Thess.4:17; Mark 13:24,27; Matt.24:29,31.//

No pretribulationalist i know of disputes your statement.
You are a post-tribulation resurrection/rapture ONLYist.
By constrast I beleive in a pretribulation resurrection/rapture and
a post-tribulation resurrection/rapture. The Church Age, born-again,
blood-bought living church of elect saints DOES NOT GO INTO THE
TRIBULATION PERIOD. Amen! \o/ Praise Jesus \o/

On the pages of this Theology Forum of the BB (Baptist Board)
we see TWO major sets of definitions, both of which are useful
to discuss eschatology, but which are different enough one needs
to be aware of which set is which.
For example I've seen a topic "There is no Rapture" discussed.
Well if one is a post-tribulationalist, then there is none of the one
rapture (the pretribulation thing) doesn't exist. The other
definition of 'rapture' exists if one is pretrib or post-trib.

Ed's Definitions:
rapture1 - like a resurrection, only the living get new bodies
resurrection1 - like a rapture, only the living get new bodies
== and thus live agian

The other set of Definitions:

rapture2 - the rapture1 and resurrection1 that happens only before
--- the Tribulation period
resurrection2 - the rapture1 and resurrection1 that happens only after
--- the Tribulation period

Both of these sets of definitions are used on the BB. Sometimes
both are used in the same post???

The movie of the opening post shows a rapture1 only
or else a rapture2 less the directly preceeding resurrection1.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ed Edwards: //hour = the appropriate time
day = the appropriate time
month = the appropriate time
year = the appropriate time
7-years ( a 'week') = the appropriate time
millinnium = the appropraite time//

Amen, Brother Ed -- You are so RIGHT ON! :thumbs:

In God's economy*
There is no want.
The dead live.
The blind see.
The lame leap like deer.
The greatest gets there by being least.
A child shall lead them.
There is plenty of room at the table.


BTW the Greek word from which we
get our English word 'economy' is translated
several places as 'dispensation'.

-----------------------------------
Dispensation in the NT, KJV1769 version:

1 Corinthians 9:17 (KJV1769):
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward:
but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel
is committed unto me.

Ephesians 1:10 (KJV1769):
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might
gather together in one all things in Christ, both
which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 3:2 (KJV1769):
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God
which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 (KJV1769):
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation
of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

---------------------------------

 

[Marcia]

Why can't the one being "taken" refer to being taken away from God's wrath, as Noah was? Those remaining are judged (as in Noah's day when the wicked remained while the rains came and Noah was taken in the ark).

From NET Bible commentary

There is debate among commentators and scholars over the phrase one will be taken and one left about whether one is taken for judgment or for salvation. If the imagery is patterned after the rescue of Noah from the flood, as some suggest, the ones taken are the saved (as Noah was) and those left behind are judged. The imagery, however, is not directly tied to the identification of the two groups. Its primary purpose in context is to picture the sudden, surprising separation of the righteous and the judged (i.e., condemned) at the return of the Son of Man.

BTW, my computer would not play the video.

 

[Brother Bob]

quote by Marcia:
Why can't the one being "taken" refer to being taken away from God's wrath, as Noah was? Those remaining are judged (as in Noah's day when the wicked remained while the rains came and Noah was taken in the ark).

For most I think it is and then there are people like me that read the other side of the coin which "those taken" were the ones taken by the flood in their sins.

For thirty years I looked at it as you suggested Marcia until one day I was reading the Scripture again for who knows how many times and saw where those taken were taken by the flood and also the part that stuck with me was they were taken unawares.

 

[Marcia]

Brother Bob -

Or Noah was taken away in the ark. :smilewinkgrin: :tongue3:

The ark protected Noah (and his family and the animals on it), so they did not remain. Those who remained were the ones who laughed at the ark and the fact that the flood would come. They did not go with Noah.

Just as Jesus will take away and protect believers, and those who deny the coming judgment will remain and be caught unawares.

Okay, guess we agree to disagree. :wavey: