Heresy?: Calvinism or Arminianism

again i ask you sir...

why do i hope? </font>[/QUOTE]Because you do not have!

 

humm... now why did you post this?
this is a quote from the Bible...but why bring this in at this point?

i asked..what is hope/wish and this is your answer.

i can see only 2 reasons for this..


If you mean the lost have no understanding of God...i see your point..and agree. this is a fact in calvin's teaching. welcome to the truth wes. but this does not have anything to do with hope/wish

if on the other hand you are saying i do not understand for i am unsaved. you are wrong sir and you need to say so.

God saved me from my sins...and now i belong to Him. If i speak as a fool..that means i do not understand. This in no way is saying God did not save me. so NEVER say you can read my heart. God can only do this. You need only to post your views...and stop with the attacks


In the LOVE of Christ...James </font>[/QUOTE]The comment was addressed specifically to you! Do not bring any one or anything else into it!

 

Webdog,

Thanks for being civil..even if we do not agree. One does not find this very much at this site..it is sad to say.

let me consider your points...

If this is the only 2 i can chose from lets go with the one you pick. I can go with either one webdog, so i will not debate this part. The point is.. it still does not matter.

you say...
faith is given to all humans and used based on evidence....

where do we get the evidence? are we born with understanding God? where did this "fact" come from?

I think the Bible says we do NOT have the facts of God..or the evidence of God...or his understanding when we are born. So...when do we have the evidence to base our faith?

In Christ...james

 

wes,


you said...
The comment was addressed specifically to you! Do not bring any one or anything else into it!

so in other words....you are saying i am unsaved?

 

Did I say anything about your saved condition?

I said if you cannot understand the natural how can you understand the spiritual?

That has nothing to do with your salvation, because salvation is based exclusively on your faith in God, not the amount of faith but the existance of it. It is your faith in God that is based on the knowledge you recieved and believed. If you did not receive the knowledge of God you would have no faith in God and then you would not be saved.

You however do not seem to understand the basic natural make up of man. God made man in his image and that means that man has the abilities to have attributes, and attributes are that which is true of the one having them. If you have love, love is an attribute that you possess! It is in you. No one gives you love from outside yourself, and you can give your love to no one. Let me explain that. If you are in love with someone, it is a condition within yourself, a condition that you cannot give as a gift to anyone else, even the object of your love. You can only behave in accordance with your love toward that other person. If that person observes you loving them, the onus is on that person to respond to you, or to spern you. You can give tokens of your love to the object of your love, but you cannot give one iota of your love to them. All the love you have for another remains in you! It is not transferable from one to another.

If you think it otherwise I entertain your proving it.

Faith is Exclusively a human attribute! God has none of it, because there is nothing that God hopes for and nothing that God cannot see! Faith like love is not a transferable thing. You cannot give me one iota of your faith, nor can I give you one iota of mine. God has none to give, so he cannot give either of us faith!

Again if you think you can prove me wrong, feel free to do so!

 

this is the Bible verse i thank of with that statment

john 3

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

But you said this was not what you meant

 

That verse, John 3:12, is not dealing with your salvation specifically. It is Jesus chiding Nicodemus about his LACK OF UNDERSTANDING!

You seem to have the same problem that Nicodemus had!

 

and good ol nic was saved...or unsaved?

 

this is what others has told me you would do.

Talk in circles

i was told..stay away....he is here to fight. and fight only

i am the one that did not listen

look at this post above..

you say...
“I said if you cannot understand the natural “

then a few lines down..

“however you do not seem to understand the basic natural make up of man.

ok...well..now that makes sence.

1st it was...no..you didn't get to the root of faith..good try....but no
now its..i seems you understand

then you quote a statement from Christ to nic..where Christ is saying...you do not understand..for you do not have the spiritual understanding.

i ask you...
are you saying i’m unsaved...or do you agree with calvin?

you say...keep other out (calvin)..i’m talking to you

i say...
ok..so you are saying i’m unsaved...

you say....i said nothing about salvation...its your understanding

i then give you the verse....i say..this is where the verse came from...

you say..
that is talking about understanding...


and why does nic have no understanding?

he is not saved!!!


hello?

i have gone around in circles..this whole time

why?

this has been a waste of time...

all you do after a post by someone..is jump and say
NO....NO WAY.....never...not in 1000 years.

then we all have to go one step at a time..all the way around the the world....then you say...ok..well maybe...you seem to understand.....could be

now here we go again....i am the one...it is me that lacks understanding

ok wes...you got me

i guess i’m a noron like you call others.
i guess i’m a parrot...like all others
everyone is stupid...right wes?

i never claim to have one up on any one. I post my views...and let them stand.
others do this too wes..

webdog does not hold to my views. i respect that. I feel he has shown respect to me. He never jumped my case...he asked nicely. My head is not spinning from talking to him.

we all can do this wes.

would you mind showing respect to someone..and read the 1st post...ask if you do not understand...and not jump someones case?

you will need to do this with someone else...

my time is worth more then talking in circles

i'm done

 

It doesn't matter!

What does matter is the fact that as a prominent teacher in the land, Nicodemus failed to understand what Jesus was telling him, so Jesus chided him.

You seem to suffer from the same malady that Nicodemus had!

 

It doesn't matter!

What does matter is the fact that as a prominent teacher in the land, Nicodemus failed to understand what Jesus was telling him, so Jesus chided him.

You seem to suffer from the same malady that Nicodemus had! </font>[/QUOTE]and around the world we go....

 

That is your interpretation only, it is not mine because I do not believe ones salvific condition is at issue with John 3:12, but you want to make it the issue, so you are the one with the false interpretation.


The first post!
Old Regular posted

Now 14 pages of posts later you want to do what?

We can see by your latest post that you are the one leading this around in circles.

 

Webdog,


you say...
faith is given to all humans and used based on evidence....

where do we get the evidence? are we born with understanding God? where did this "fact" come from?

I think the Bible says we do NOT have the facts of God..or the evidence of God...or his understanding when we are born. So...when do we have the evidence to base our faith?

In Christ...james </font>[/QUOTE]I agree we do not have the facts of God when we are born...that comes later from hearing the Word. We are born with faith...faith in our parents to provide food, shelter, clothes and school supplies, faith when my father swings me around he won't drop me, faith in the swim instructor to not let me drown learning to swim, faith when my father tells me to jump into hi arms he will not drop me, etc. We are born with faith. The "elect" and "non elect" use faith daily in driving that the other motorists follow the lights and signs, in their workplace that they will get paid based on the work done, etc. The Bible says all men know that God exists instinctively (Roman 1). It is not until hearing the gospel one has the ability to "choose life" or "choose death" and exercise faith in Jesus Christ. By not choosing life you automatically "choose death" (something some on this board will not admit). This is where we differ. I believe faith is faith, you believe God gives the "elect" special faith, something I just do not see ever mentioned in the Word.

 

Wes, You need to back off the rhetoric. DO not question another's salvation. It will not be tolerated.

 

Larry,
You need to read the posts of the others.

I have not once questioned anyone's salvation!

I am defending myself from their false accusations of me doing so.

 

[/qb][/QUOTE]I agree we do not have the facts of God when we are born...that comes later from hearing the Word. We are born with faith...faith in our parents to provide food, shelter, clothes and school supplies, faith when my father swings me around he won't drop me, faith in the swim instructor to not let me drown learning to swim, faith when my father tells me to jump into hi arms he will not drop me, etc. We are born with faith. The "elect" and "non elect" use faith daily in driving that the other motorists follow the lights and signs, in their workplace that they will get paid based on the work done, etc. The Bible says all men know that God exists instinctively (Roman 1). It is not until hearing the gospel one has the ability to "choose life" or "choose death" and exercise faith in Jesus Christ. By not choosing life you automatically "choose death" (something some on this board will not admit). This is where we differ. I believe faith is faith, you believe God gives the "elect" special faith, something I just do not see ever mentioned in the Word. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Webdog,

i will talk on this forum to others....i just see no point to talk with some.

That was a great post. we agree on more then some.

like this...
By not choosing life you automatically "choose death".
Aman. when we sin...that does not make us a sinner.
we were sinners before we were born.

on the faith part...i can go as wes says...or i can go as you said.....or i can go as calvin teaches.

if we do not have it....and it is just out there to use..as wes says...we still can't use it till God is known.

or...if we have it all along...we still can not use it..till God as faith in God..till we know of God.

If God gives faith..like some calvinist teach...we still can not use it till God gives it..and that is when we have it

that is why it does not matter to me.

You make a very good point that many calvinist over look.

Romans 1. But i would say..romans 1,2,3,4,5...or at least to 4

but i would not go as far as to say..
The Bible says all men know that God exists instinctively

i would say it this...
The Bible says all men SHOULD know that God exists instinctively.

but the point is...God has reached out to all men. He truly does want all to come to Him.

now..election....yes..this is the tough one.

let me say this..my view is not pure calvin.

what one must do...election is in the bible....do not run from it...it is there. some always try to move to another subject when it comes up...but it still is there. This is not the way to truth. Look...it is there. what does it mean?

so...how do I handle it?...or how do you?

you...just as i...have to take on a meaning that fits the Bible.

I'll give this to wes...he does not hide from election...he tells what he thinks...based on his faith..and the way he sees the Bible. i do not agree with wes..as you can see.

Others say something like wes in a way...but on the other side of the road as wes....election is talking about "the church group"..as a whole. this can be seen in some passages too...just as wes view.

but both these views have other passages that must be dealt with.

there are other views out there too. It seems all views have passage that must be addressed

webdog...this is what i would have you do....and maybe you have done this already...i do not know. I can tell you have study it.

but if you have not....go to a web site that has the bible..and look up every passage that has "elect, election, choosen, called, calling and chose"...and after reading these...set your own meaning to the word as you see it fits the bible

I'll not tell you what mine view is. But i will tell you this...it is found in romans 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10

but...that is my view

In Christ...james

 

Jarthur001 said,

When you use scriptures like Eph 1:5 to support "election", as you use the term, then you are using a scripture that does not support your doctrine. The full context of Eph 1:5 includes 3 through 12. Pay particular attention to verse 12 for clues to the truth.

Again, if you use Eph 1:5 to support that statement you are simply wrong.

Those spoken of in Ephesians 1:5 are the same as those spoken of in Eph 1:12. No one alive today was chosen to be the people who would put their hopes in the Christ before he came. There is but an elect few, relatively speaking, who fit this description, and that is indeed the Apostles of Christ Jesus. That can be substantiated in John 17. And in John 1:40-42 which provides evidence of those who did put their hopes in Christ before he came.

A clear indication that there were those who had hopes of "seeing the messiah" or Christ as Messiah is translated. They had those hopes for some time in anticipation of the advent of the Christ.

Who is willing to say that those whom the Father gave to Jesus are anyone but the Apostles?

Now I believe that reliably shoots down one of the stronghold scriptures used to support the doctrine of election, as it is generally understood by the Calvinists.

 

webdog,

what you see that wes posted is not election. many use this verse in the wrong way for election is linked to other truths..but not the same truth. many that use this...are calvin people....and this is wrong.
Here is a rule to follow. When you see the word predestinated..or the likes there of comes up in the passage....that is where election ends. look in the passage below.


4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


in 4..we have the word chosen..one of the words that i said look up. notice i never said look up predestinated. chosen has the same meaning as election. predestinated is another truth linked to election...but not election. predestinated is what many fight over and yet it does not mean election. predestinated means...destination known.

like this...i have 2 tickets..one to boston..the other to NY

the trip...is from your place to boston or NY. what trip you go on is the destination where you will be.

God is saying..two paths..heaven or hell. these paths He knows about. These pathst have been from the beginning of time. now you need to stop on predestinated...for that is all it means.

election is the word to look at. election tells who is on what plane..in this trip.
predestinated is showing us that God will finish the salvation plan


wes places his election doctrine in a passage about predestinated. that is how he comes up with his view.

read below and see if you agree.

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.


In Christ...James

 

Jarthur001, pay attention! Wes does not subscribe to a "doctrine of general election", and refutes it every time he sees it!

Pay attention! If you are going to quote scripture, post the whole thought! Which in Ephesians 1 is verses 3-12, all of them and all of each of them! for example, Eph 1:12 "chosen to be, for the praise of his glory, the people who would put their hopes in Christ before he came".

By cutting off "before he came" you can make the verse speak of all mankind, but Paul did not include all mankind, only those who hoped the Christ would come before he actually came.

Now that changes everything for those who use Ephesians 1 to support their ill conceived doctrine of election. 3 little words ends the argument.